Why do we get the threads from Riot asking what is wrong with a champion?

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iamtehLoLrus

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamsOfGrandeur View Post

The intent being, it could be used to get behind an enemy champion but never away; making it purely an initiation or repositioning tool.
Leona's Zenith Blade? Mixed with a little bit of Master Yi's Alpha Strike?


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
dodges
That is basically the key to a carry.

A Melee needs to be able to withstand ranged harassment in laning.

And ranged CC/burst in teamfights.

Ranged AD does this through just about positioning only. Flashes.

But this is almost definitely not the only way to do it.


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
Can I ask why? Is the high point of playing Fiora really when you burst of speed and auto somebody to death and not blade waltz?
Blade Waltz certainly helps and can "soften then up", but her main point of existence is still to pick one particular target and auto-attack them down, in a "one to the next to the next" style.

Worded another way; is the purpose of MF really to pop her W and auto somebody to death and not her ult? Same thing; her ult is part of her kit and gives her niche, but her main purpose is still "auto everyone to death".


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Nilous7

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamsOfGrandeur View Post
Xypherous, I'd like to know if it's possible to make a skill-shot dash that can only be cast towards nearby enemy champions.
If such a summoner spell were made with a bonus effect to help users survive diving at the enemy, I think that would solve the issue of mages destroying melee-carries.


A few months back, I posted about the idea for a new summoner spell that made a character untargetable for a brief moment (having little to no additional effects, but did not interrupt movement). (This got a lot of flack from anti-Vladimir/Fizz players)

The focus of the spell was for it to be an alternative to Flash for champions who already have move-block abilities and would benefit more from being able to negate enemy retaliation.
The major kink I found was that untargetability wasn't what I wanted - I wanted projectile popping.


Back to the original question: A year ago, I thought such a mechanic should be applied to Flash. But I learned that even Riot very much liked players using it to get over walls in spite of it stagnating early game or aggressive gameplay.

If we had another move block skill, a dash that could only be used towards enemy champions, which deflected / negated projectiles and made them invulnerable for a fraction of a moment, would that not be a great solution for melee carries?
It would give skilled players a way to bypass the magic-damage when it matters and get down the damage they need to deal.

It would sacrifice the power of having an escape, which is a huge thing to give up, for superior combat survivability and possibly a larger move-block.

Example Spell - Phase Out:

Dash/Blink in the direction of an enemy champion, becoming invulnerable for 0.75 seconds.
Range: 600
Cooldown: 180 seconds.

The intent being, it could be used to get behind an enemy champion but never away; making it purely an initiation or repositioning tool. (A lot of champions would end up getting a huge buff if such a spell were introduced, but I think that's only because they're all balanced around Flash now, and that can easily be solved by some selective nerfing as Riot's always done)

So you're saying, instead of Master Yi Alpha striking to you, he now instead immediately jumps to me with a dash like Fiora... but is essentially Troll Pooled/Troll Polled in the middle of a team fight hacking me to bits... Okay, what counter play as a mage do I have to the duration of damage he's getting in? I can CC him? Nope. I can burst him? Nope. I can run from him? He's Master Yi... never going to happen. I can... I can cry as he cuts me to ribbons.

Also, requiring a summoner spell for a champion to be effective is NOT a good design idea.


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Sessamo

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
Blade Waltz certainly helps and can "soften then up", but her main point of existence is still to pick one particular target and auto-attack them down, in a "one to the next to the next" style.

Worded another way; is the purpose of MF really to pop her W and auto somebody to death and not her ult? Same thing; her ult is part of her kit and gives her niche, but her main purpose is still "auto everyone to death".
Uh, well I feel like increasingly the point of MF is indeed to ult the enemy team into oblivion. Her item purchasing would certainly indicate such, I think.


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DreamsOfGrandeur

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Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamtehLoLrus View Post
Leona's Zenith Blade? Mixed with a little bit of Master Yi's Alpha Strike?
More like, Tryndamere's Spinning Slash mixed with Alpha Strike, but you could only aim the skill shot towards an enemy champion.

There'd be a circle/oval around the enemy champions nearby, and you'd need to point the linear-indicator toward them for it to be castable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilous7 View Post
requiring a summoner spell for a champion to be effective is NOT a good design idea.
Tell that to "Flash".
Oh, and Smite - LOL, Smite is mandatory in the jungle. Want to take a crack at removing that? It was added because not having it was bad game design - Too much pressure of having jungle objectives; especially Baron and Dragon.

Riot is clearly willing to overlook spell-necessity if the same spell helps instigate interesting gameplay and smooth out parts of the game.
I think the viability of Melee Carries and introducing an alternative to Flash fits the bill.


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iamtehLoLrus

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
Blade Waltz certainly helps and can "soften then up", but her main point of existence is still to pick one particular target and auto-attack them down, in a "one to the next to the next" style.
Until she gets CC'd and kited for 3 seconds and oh yeah your auto damage is now pretty low. You could dodge the CC with Blade Waltz but that 3 second burst of attack speed is now doing a whole lot of good while your not auto attacking. The problem with melee ADC as a role is ADC is a glass cannon role, and glass cannon's tend to blow up when you get them at melee range. Your a ranged ADC who doesnt kite.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

05-10-2013
35 of 40 Riot Posts

Quote:
If we had another move block skill, a dash that could only be used towards enemy champions, which deflected / negated projectiles and made them invulnerable for a fraction of a moment, would that not be a great solution for melee carries?
It would give skilled players a way to bypass the magic-damage when it matters and get down the damage they need to deal.

It would sacrifice the power of having an escape, which is a huge thing to give up, for superior combat survivability and possibly a larger move-block.

Example Spell - Phase Out:

Dash/Blink in the direction of an enemy champion, becoming invulnerable for 0.75 seconds.
Range: 600
Cooldown: 180 seconds.

The intent being, it could be used to get behind an enemy champion but never away; making it purely an initiation or repositioning tool.
How well do you think Alpha Strike works? Because that's what this is, it sounds like?

Or is the free-targetting really important here - like casting it 'kinda towards but not really' an enemy champion?

I'm not sure it would solve their problems - it doesn't seem like their ability to get into a fight is a problem, nor is it really an issue for them to get into the backrow of a fight - that's my gut reaction. Although, I guess the claim here is that they need another phase out dash?

Quote:
Xyph i'd like to know your opinion on AoE based champions in S3 like Vladimir, Morde, etc. Since the introduction of Runic Bulwark (a very cost effective item), Locket and flat magic pen nerfs i feel like their role in teamfights and damage got a lot worse considering how some of them have low utility compared to other AP mages. But overall i feel like Vlad was the one that got hit really hard, especially after the 20 base damage nerf on Tides of blood before the season 2 WC and after that we got S3 with the items mentioned
I don't know much about Vladimir these days, admittedly. Sorry. I know Mordekaiser does pretty well win-rate wise - he's just super binary which causes everyone to think he's far weaker than he is.

The Flat Penetration nerfs certainly hit them hardest because they have weaker laning phases than most, and so relied on the flat penetration to carry them through lane. However, Void Staff is completely crazy - I'll ask about Vladimir when I get the chance.

Quote:
You (not you, but you know what I mean) reworked her massively. However, while comparing with the two reworked champions (Sej and Trundle)that mantained a lot of their original gameplay and concept (Karma didnt, IMO), Karma didnt reach the ''sucess'' (read more winrate/userate) that Sej and Trund. My question is: what is your opinion on Karma's case? (You are totally forgiven if you know few of Karma's case)
I don't really like talking about Karma - I kind of prefer leaving that to Scarizard. I will say that we completely screwed up her release balance to an extreme extent and it really sucks that we did because we just didn't deliver the day one expectations. I feel like the kit has a much better flow to it - but I still wish we kept two mantra charges.

Trundle was a lot easier than Karma, because Trundle already worked - for the most part. It was just getting people to realize that it worked through some visibility changes. Sejuani was overpowered before the remake - and the remake has done nothing but make that even more obvious - so that was also slightly easier.

Okay okay... I need to eat foods and then possibly pass out. Sorry guys - Not going to be responding any more to this thread - Night all.


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CapnChoGath

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Senior Member

05-10-2013

Would ChoGath be one of those characters that scale well with skill?


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Nilous7

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamsOfGrandeur View Post
More like, Tryndamere's Spinning Slash mixed with Alpha Strike, but you could only aim the skill shot towards an enemy champion.

There'd be a circle/oval around the enemy champions nearby, and you'd need to point the linear-indicator toward them for it to be castable.



Tell that to "Flash".

Riot is clearly willing to overlook spell-necessity if the same spell helps instigate interesting gameplay.
You're essentially giving everyone Xin Xhao's leap, and then the ability to be invulnerable afterwards. Talon will love you for the rest of his life, as will Amumu.