Why do we get the threads from Riot asking what is wrong with a champion?

First Riot Post
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questir

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Xyph i'd like to know your opinion on AoE based champions in S3 like Vladimir, Morde, etc. Since the introduction of Runic Bulwark (a very cost effective item), Locket and flat magic pen nerfs i feel like their role in teamfights and damage got a lot worse considering how some of them have low utility compared to other AP mages. But overall i feel like Vlad was the one that got hit really hard, especially after the 20 base damage nerf on Tides of blood before the season 2 WC and after that we got S3 with the items mentioned


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Voluug

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Senior Member

05-11-2013

Xypherous, I want to ask you something that may or may not be an open wound: Karma.

You (not you, but you know what I mean) reworked her massively. However, while comparing with the two reworked champions (Sej and Trundle)that mantained a lot of their original gameplay and concept (Karma didnt, IMO), Karma didnt reach the ''sucess'' (read more winrate/userate) that Sej and Trund. My question is: what is your opinion on Karma's case? (You are totally forgiven if you know few of Karma's case)

My opinion if you want it: You guys went overboard and trasformed her too much. Her overall gameplay and kit was fine, but she lacked some kind of reliable CC and she was way too dependant on her team mates knowing all her tricks, specially olds W and Mantra-Q.


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Hexten

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
From what I've seen, Reset on Kill doesn't seem to incentivize skilled gameplay as much as simply punish the losing team for losing.

It does create enormous high moments though - but they've generally come at considerable cost (Darius / Katarina) for example. I'm not sure if we've done the mechanic entirely correctly - there's facets that are good and bad.

In general, reset on kill tends to favor low elo over high elo - which means that it generally decreases in power as skill level increases. However, the flashiness of said resets increases as skill level increases.
When Akali was in the works, she had her R to her E. It was 8 dashes, but it used energy up each time. Her R was a buff that gave energy. Her dash used to be skillshot. Idk, but that was Coronach's design, but Ezreal later raged so hard that he wouldn't leave until Coronach changed it to the Akali we have now. That's probably why E doesn't fit into her kit at all, it was a 'filler' skill. But just tossing these ideas out there you can pitch to Statikk.

She also DID NOT have kill reset mechanic on her ult to begin with, until it was added when Miss Fortune came out. Although her kill reset is very minimal (one charge). Maybe to fit with Siriner's idea for ult to be more of outplaying (high freedom to spam in order to juke opponents) rather than oustating (spam R for damage and hope to kill.), having higher stacks+lower cooldown but no kill on reset mechanic would help low elo out.

Another thing to help out her W, you could make its duration less, but have a faster cooldown. Like 4 seconds stealth, but 10 seconds cooldown, immune to true vision etc. I think this reduces her pubstomping nature a lot for low elo's, as you can wait out the stealth, instead of forcing to buy pink wards. It should be used more of a well timed disengage rather than abused as a dueling arena against low elo players.


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Nilous7

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by questir View Post
Xyph i'd like to know your opinion on AoE based champions in S3 like Vladimir, Morde, etc. Since the introduction of Runic Bulwark (a very cost effective item), Locket and flat magic pen nerfs i feel like their role in teamfights and damage got a lot worse considering how some of them have low utility compared to other AP mages. But overall i feel like Vlad was the one that got hit really hard, especially after the 20 base damage nerf on Tides of blood before the season 2 WC and after that we got S3 with the items mentioned

I agree Vlad could use some love. In general, he neither is tanky enough for what he needs to be, nor makes up for it in damage. If he builds for damage, he isn't tanky enough to be an hp caster. And if he builds tanky, he just tickles, with no CC or utility. If he builds for a mix... he can't even sustain himself in lane.


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Treeke

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Hey Based Overlord Xyph now that you are answering questions in this thread...

Can you nerf diana even more? tanky mobile AP assasin with awesome auto attacks which works on towers and has a double(if you don't chain it) gapcloser, I mean, come on.


Who designed or is designing Arthrax(new champ)? Is he a melee carry or tanky dps? I know he is a lategame champ because he utilize health as a resource.

Riven, why did you create her? I hate her(She isn't OP, but I dislike her powerful snowballing)


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

05-11-2013
34 of 40 Riot Posts

Quote:
With a few exceptions, defensive spells are instantaneous and buff-oriented. In your response, you indicate that your basic idea of a defensive spell would give the melee adc a temporary armor/mr buff. I think this is a problem. When defensive abilities are instant and buff-oriented, they ignore the rules of counterplay that make offensive abilities so satisfying in this game. These kinds of defensive abilities are often highly satisfying to use but highly frustrating to play against. Nobody wants to see their burst go down the drain cause ap yi cast meditate while my spells were still in flight. The trick is to make defensive abilities more fun to play against, and for that to happen, there must be clear counterplay options. My suggestions were visible countdown timers and skillshot-sequence defensive spells, but those are just some beginning ideas.
My statement was that temporary defensive bonuses basically equate to permanent defensive bonuses for the most part - as having the defense for most of the team fight, is, in general, as good as having it up all the time - regardless of how you get it.

You can throw a bunch of hoops or gates to lock those bonuses away from players until they do some specific action to add skill to obtaining that defense - but in general, the final thing you've created when it "works" is a tanky dude with a lot of autoattack damage.

So much depends on the actual defense ability in general though - because if it's risky, the character is binary if he misses and if it's not risky, you've just got another gap closing, tanky, autoattack man on you. I think it could be a cool character - I'm just not sure you can solve the current melee ADCs with that paradigm.

Quote:
I feel like there should be room for champion design like this, with a kit built around it that requires the skill. Abilities could be dodges, gap-closers, speed-ups, AS boosts, etc. But right-clicking is the primary way to kill someone. QWER would just support that playstyle, they would not become the direct method of killing people.
A character based around AA-steroids, dodges, gap closers and melee enhancers with a super hard hitting autoattack?

What if you gave them 4 gap closers?

I made that character and it's still a fighter, at the end of the day.


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Sessamo

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
In any event, it really sounds like to me, you guys really are eliminating melee carries from LoL and just making some different style of bruiser/assassin/AD mage that scales with AS/Crit---that's hugely disappointing.
Can I ask why? Is the high point of playing Fiora really when you burst of speed and auto somebody to death and not blade waltz?


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Hellioning

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sessamo View Post
Can I ask why? Is the high point of playing Fiora really when you burst of speed and auto somebody to death and not blade waltz?
Yes? Blade Waltz is for diving or dive prevention, now that tiamat stacking is no longer a thing.


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DreamsOfGrandeur

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Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Mages actually tend to be the ones to destroy melee ADC mid-game - while ranged carries are capable of auto-attack kiting, if you look at the people thought of as "traditional" AD carries (Trynd/Yi/Fiora) - none of them can really be kited all that effectively (okay.. okay.. Fiora can be kited.)
Xypherous, I'd like to know if it's possible to make a skill-shot dash that can only be cast towards nearby enemy champions.
If such a summoner spell were made with a bonus effect to help users survive diving at the enemy, I think that would solve the issue of mages destroying melee-carries.


A few months back, I posted about the idea for a new summoner spell that made a character untargetable for a brief moment (having little to no additional effects, but did not interrupt movement). (This got a lot of flack from anti-Vladimir/Fizz players)

The focus of the spell was for it to be an alternative to Flash for champions who already have move-block abilities and would benefit more from being able to bypass or avoid enemy attacks while closing the gap.


Back to the original question: A year ago, I thought such a mechanic should be applied to Flash. But I learned that even Riot very much liked players using it to get over walls in spite of it stagnating early game or aggressive gameplay.

If we had another move block skill, a dash that could only be used to move towards enemy champions, would that not be a great solution for melee carries?
It would give skilled players a way to bypass the magic-damage when it matters and get down the damage they need to deal.

It would sacrifice the power of having an escape, which is a huge thing to give up, for superior combat survivability and possibly a larger move-block.

Example Spell - Phase Out:

Dash/Blink in the direction of an enemy champion, becoming invulnerable for 0.75 seconds.
Range: 600
Cooldown: 180 seconds.

The intent being, it could be used to get behind an enemy champion but never away; making it purely an initiation or repositioning tool. (A lot of champions would end up getting a huge buff if such a spell were introduced, but I think that's only because they're all balanced around Flash now, and that can easily be solved by some selective nerfing as Riot's always done)


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
You can throw a bunch of hoops or gates to lock those bonuses away from players until they do some specific action to add skill to obtaining that defense - but in general, the final thing you've created when it "works" is a tanky dude with a lot of autoattack damage.
The key is to make the tankiness skill based, of course.

You see Janna's shield? Yeah.

That works.

A melee carry with that could work.

But it needs to block what destroys a melee carry-- CC and burst.

So it can't last as long as Janna's shield.

But for the Melee AD player who is quick, it can open up a survival path and an entertaining 'mindgame' of "got you now".