Why do we get the threads from Riot asking what is wrong with a champion?

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Xypherous

Systems Designer

05-10-2013
33 of 40 Riot Posts

Quote:
In my opinion, Reset on Kill incentivizes skilled gameplay. At the very least, it's the most useful when there's a skill gap between the players.
From what I've seen, Reset on Kill doesn't seem to incentivize skilled gameplay as much as simply punish the losing team for losing.

It does create enormous high moments though - but they've generally come at considerable cost (Darius / Katarina) for example. I'm not sure if we've done the mechanic entirely correctly - there's facets that are good and bad.

In general, reset on kill tends to favor low elo over high elo - which means that it generally decreases in power as skill level increases. However, the flashiness of said resets increases as skill level increases.


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Absolute 42

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Xypherous,

Thank you for responding to my reverse bruiser idea. I think your response missed the main point of my original post. Here's the point:

Melee adcs cannot be fixed until Riot changes the way that defensive abilities work.

With a few exceptions, defensive spells are instantaneous and buff-oriented. In your response, you indicate that your basic idea of a defensive spell would give the melee adc a temporary armor/mr buff. I think this is a problem. When defensive abilities are instant and buff-oriented, they ignore the rules of counterplay that make offensive abilities so satisfying in this game. These kinds of defensive abilities are often highly satisfying to use but highly frustrating to play against. Nobody wants to see their burst go down the drain cause ap yi cast meditate while my spells were still in flight. The trick is to make defensive abilities more fun to play against, and for that to happen, there must be clear counterplay options. My suggestions were visible countdown timers and skillshot-esque defensive spells, but those are just some beginning ideas.

Once those problems are fixed, I think it would be possible to have a melee adc that deals damage mostly through right clicks. The skill would come in through positioning and proper use of new and improved defensive abilities.


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judgeshowtunes

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Just because your autoattack is melee, doesn't mean you're a melee champion. Mordekaiser functions quite well at range.
One of his biggest spells is melee. Kinda has to be in melee at some point. It's not a huge problem when you build him tanky, but still, yeah, he's kinda melee. He has approximately 1 recurring ranged ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If that's the playstyle you desire, it's not going to happen - because, that play pattern doesn't effectively scale with skill.

If that's the viability you desire, it also constrains the skill level at which you can play at, because effectively, what you're asking is 'I want to not think about anything but clicking once on a man and winning.'

Contrast that with ranged carries, where the act of right clicking is actually pretty intricate, with orb-walking, positioning and target selection - the right click of a melee doesn't actually have all that many levers to express skill with.
I feel like there should be room for champion design like this, with a kit built around it that requires the skill. Abilities could be dodges, gap-closers, speed-ups, AS boosts, etc. But right-clicking is the primary way to kill someone. QWER would just support that playstyle, they would not become the direct method of killing people.

We have champions like that. Fiora, Yi, Trynd...but it just feels awful to play them. And even Fiora is half caster, honestly. Thematically and playstyle-wise, Master Yi is one of my favorite champions in the game, but half the time I take a bunch of **** for playing him (AD), and then the other half of the time is split roughly equally between doing amazing and doing awful.

But you either get super-fed or you lose your team the game. It just feels terrible to play these champs, but I love their style. I would really like to see/hear actual progress on the issue of making them less hit-or-miss, instead of something like "well, that kind of playstyle will never happen."


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Caldros

Member

05-10-2013

Have you ever considered rebalancing Tryndamere as a fighter instead of an ad carry? I ask because since his kit relies so heavily on auto attacks to build fury and surviving long enough to get crits on people, unlike yi and fiora who can go in and burst someone down with their abilities.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute 42 View Post
XWhen defensive abilities are instant and buff-oriented, they ignore the rules of counterplay that make offensive abilities so satisfying in this game. These kinds of defensive abilities are often highly satisfying to use but highly frustrating to play against. Nobody wants to see their burst go down the drain cause ap yi cast meditate while my spells were still in flight.
Incorrect.

Were that the case, Janna shield would just cause so much more infuriation every game than "clutch save, thanks Janna".

Guess what, people don't like getting hit with a ton of spells or rightclicks and dying either.

The timing of offense and defense are counterplays of eachother.


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Mushroom3691

Junior Member

05-10-2013

Ahhh I see, makes sense, much like BotRK warping the ADC vs ADC matchup. But what about wriggles being overshadowed by the spirit stone upgrades? Lately you see alot of pros, if they even get claws, only upgrade to claws, and not wriggles. I remember back in S2 Wriggles could be picked up by laners, but that is far from the case anymore. Thoughts on Wriggles as an item?

Edit for Clarity


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Sylvr

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Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
From what I've seen, Reset on Kill doesn't seem to incentivize skilled gameplay as much as simply punish the losing team for losing.

It does create enormous high moments though - but they've generally come at considerable cost (Darius / Katarina) for example. I'm not sure if we've done the mechanic entirely correctly - there's facets that are good and bad.

In general, reset on kill tends to favor low elo over high elo - which means that it generally decreases in power as skill level increases. However, the flashiness of said resets increases as skill level increases.
I'd say more of a bell curve. When I was new to the game, I never used my resets correctly. I tended to forget about them entirely until I was dead and realized that I COULD have lived. It's only a bit later on when you're able to plan your moves ahead of time and factor your resets into your combos (far more complex than your average face-roll combo) that you really even get any power out of them. Then later, your enemies also start planning for your resets- or rather, plan on how to deny them to you.


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Nilous7

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Xypherous, what is your opinion on Sion?

Also, could you comment on how you feel assassin-like mages compare to burst mages (such as how Katarina and Akali are encouraged to jump on a foe and kill them in the blink of an eye, compared to Brand not being allowed to do this)?


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Rauron

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Xypherous, it's always a pleasure to see you here, and I'm super happy that you've been chatting more often lately.

Minor thing: I feel like Fiddle is strong-ish, certainly viable, but one of those champions that's either extremely annoying or nearly useless, primarily due to his Q being a one-click 3 second hard CC and an hourglass + ult pretty much defining teamfights assuming he's present and not stupidly underfarmed. Also, a bouncing silence + nuke is really cool, but also somewhat problematic everywhere but in the jungle. I'm sure he's not a priority right now, but do you have any thoughts on his kit and gameplay?


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Fox P McCloud

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Senior Member

05-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
If that's the playstyle you desire, it's not going to happen - because, that play pattern doesn't effectively scale with skill.

If that's the viability you desire, it also constrains the skill level at which you can play at, because effectively, what you're asking is 'I want to not think about anything but clicking once on a man and winning.'

Contrast that with ranged carries, where the act of right clicking is actually pretty intricate, with orb-walking, positioning and target selection - the right click of a melee doesn't actually have all that many levers to express skill with.

If we're being 'honest' - let's be honest about what that implies as well
So, effectively, you (and Riot in general), must generally abhor and loathe the current 3 melee carries you have then, since this is effectively what they do in their current iteration (especially Yi and Tryn, though it's still very much the case with Fiora as well).

While I agree that melee doesn't have to worry about attack-moving, I still fail to see how they don't have to worry about positioning or target selection--even so, if I accept this, wouldn't you agree that unlikely the ranged, they have to pick the correct time to go in? Sometimes it's obvious (amumu/malph ults), and sometimes it's not; isn't knowing when to go in and who to properly focus an expression of "skill"?

In any event, it really sounds like to me, you guys really are eliminating melee carries from LoL and just making some different style of bruiser/assassin/AD mage that scales with AS/Crit---that's hugely disappointing.