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False Item choices: Statikk Shiv

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Nicarasu

Senior Member

05-11-2013

I think ADC's really aren't as viable this season either. It has become extremely expensive to stack lots of AD and crits, but pure attack speed isn't really the way to go either (unless you're vayne). There can't really be one comprehensive build because there are too many ways to counter the regular ADC build.


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Vuther

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
PhailRaptor:
And because his Spinning Axe also gives him a huge bonus to raw AD, he can delay his BF item in favor of rushing more crit chance.

I'm not seeing your point here since his Spinning Axe's bonus damage is independent from critical striking.


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PhailRaptor

Adjudicator

05-11-2013

Quote:
Vuther:
I'm not seeing your point here since his Spinning Axe's bonus damage is independent from critical striking.


Spinning Axe provides a huge % AD amp, allowing you to delay the purchasing of raw AD, instead spending that gold on Crit items. It has nothing to do with increasing Spinning Axe's damage further (other than the obvious getting a crit on a Spinning Axe). Instead, you increase the likelihood of procing your passive should you not have an axe for wharever reason. Those kind of lucky crits can make or break a skirmish, especially when you get extra free damage from your extra free damage.


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Vuther

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
PhailRaptor:
Spinning Axe provides a huge % AD amp, allowing you to delay the purchasing of raw AD, instead spending that gold on Crit items. It has nothing to do with increasing Spinning Axe's damage further (other than the obvious getting a crit on a Spinning Axe). Instead, you increase the likelihood of procing your passive should you not have an axe for wharever reason. Those kind of lucky crits can make or break a skirmish, especially when you get extra free damage from your extra free damage.

Calculating it, a Pickaxe for 875 gold will give your autoattacks and Spinning Axe 25 + 21.25 damage with Spinning Axe maxed at level 9. Cloak of Agility for 730 gold will grant your autoattacks a 15% chance to add a 66 damage over 4 seconds Wicked Blades proc and an average of 15% more autoattack damage to Draven's 78 base attack damage at level 9, which means somewhere around an average of 9.9 damage added (over 4 seconds) for Wicked Blades and 11.7 more damage to the autoattack themselves.

I dunno, I can still see the value of it if you crit quickly in a fight, but it strikes me as unreliable (an appropriate tradeoff for the potential power, I suppose).


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TealNinje

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Vuther:
I dunno, I can still see the value of it if you crit quickly in a fight, but it strikes me as unreliable (an appropriate tradeoff for the potential power, I suppose).

Attack a minion 4 times. Don't crit on those 4 times. Attack the enemy 3 times. Extremely likely you'll crit on one of those 3 hits and quite possible to crit twice.


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Vuther

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
TealNinje:
Attack a minion 4 times. Don't crit on those 4 times. Attack the enemy 3 times. Extremely likely you'll crit on one of those 3 hits and quite possible to crit twice.

What if it crits within those 4 times attacking a minion?


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TealNinje

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Vuther:
What if it crits within those 4 times attacking a minion?

Then you don't engage and wait until you have 4 attacks without crits.

It's abusing Riot's crit system.


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Rawrful

Senior Member

05-12-2013

You seem to be missing out on a few critical elements of game play. Namely, power curves and 'end game.'

By end game, I mean when the game ends. When I look at my history, I have 4 games played as an ADC (4 non ARAM non custom games). In zero of them do I have 6 items and need the most cost-per-slot effective items. Thinking of things in terms of 6 items is terrible. Thinking of things in terms of when they come to strength is far better.

Which is where power curves come into play. As a general rule, ADCs power curve starts low, and gets higher as the game goes on. Itemization is important during that curve, because it gives you little plateaus where your power jumps. The in lane power jump you get from a Shiv is way, way, WAY higher than the power you get from a Phantom Dancer.

I don't think 100 critable damage is really registering in strength to you. What it means is every 3 or 4 seconds you get an attack with the equivalent of two BF swords. You get Shiv and play aggressive in lane, because you know when your proc is coming up, and you know for a fact that if you open a fight with a proc, you win the trade. If they turn it into a full fight, they eat massive front loaded damage (Both of them, probably). And dear god, if your shiv crits you instantly win. Shiv is way stronger early game, because it gives you raw damage AND crit AND attack speed AND pushing power. Everyone knows PD is better raw damage at 6 items, heck its better at 5. But burst is king for the first 35 minutes, and Shiv has burst.

Building an ADC for raw damage assuming you make it to super-late game isn't effective in most games. Building your ADC to maximize their damage between 25 and 35 minutes lets you end games before the enemy has a chance to get to their finished build. 'Blue' builds are the same theory. They give control and mid game power, rather than going for the damage hose that is a late game crit build. Manamune is okay early game, Muramana adds stupidly insane damage mid game, but the proc can't crit so it scales poorly into super-late game on an ADC. Iceborn Guantlet gives you kiting and control and a nice mid game damage boost, but Trinity gives more damage and more AD and more crit if you make it to the stage that those stats matter.

tl:dr Shiv rocks Phantoms face off early game, which gives you early power, which lets you snowball and end games.


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Vuther

Senior Member

05-12-2013

Quote:
TealNinje:
Then you don't engage and wait until you have 4 attacks without crits.

It's abusing Riot's crit system.

What if they engage on you?


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PhailRaptor

Adjudicator

05-12-2013

Quote:
Rawrful:
tl:dr Shiv rocks Phantoms face off early game, which gives you early power, which lets you snowball and end games.


Who said we're rushing a Phantom? When I upgrade my Zeal to a Phantom, I have Zerker's + Cutlass + BF Sword.

Barring any total stomp lanes, the only time an early Shiv should win is if you can guarantee a farmfest for the next 5 minutes or more to abuse the bonus gold per last hit on Avarice Blade. You will have next to no AD during that time, and no lifesteal, meaning damage taken will stick leaving you vulnerable to poke. Any engagements during that time will take your attention away from farming, diminishing the Avarice and put you behind in health. And god save you if their jungler ganks during that time, successfully or not.