The State of Tiger Udyr

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BamboodPanda

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Junior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
Sorry guys, I'd like to start by apologizing because we definitely screwed up here both in terms of what we put into the game and what we failed to communicate out to you guys, but let me clarify what is and what is not intended with Udyr's Tiger Stance.

What Is Intended:
- Udyr can "prime" Tiger Stance's damage-over-time proc indefinitely as long as he remains in Tiger Stance
- Tiger Stance's Attack Speed bonus carries over into other Stances

What Is Not Intended:
- Udyr should not be able to use Tiger Stance's damage-over-time proc while in other Stances

With the new patch, we removed his ability to get the Tiger first hit proc unless he used it within the first 5 seconds of being in Tiger Stance. This is not intended. Udyr's first hit after switching into Tiger Stance should proc the DoT regardless of how long he has been in Tiger Stance, but the instant he switches out of it he will not be able to proc it.

I know removing the ability to proc the Tiger DoT while in other stances is a nerf, but it is intended. Frankly, it doesn't make sense for him to apply his Tiger hit in other Stances from several perspectives (gameplay, visuals, or thematics). Tiger's proc, Bear's stun, and Phoenix's Flame Breath are all intended to be local to those stances. At the end of the day, if the only reason to use Tiger is to switch into it and then immediately switch out of it...that seems to point to a core problem that Tiger Stance is simply not attractive enough on its own. So we'll deal with that if that's an issue.

TL;DR
We will be giving Udyr back the ability to prime his DoT indefinitely as long as he remains in Tiger Stance. Removing the ability to proc the Tiger DoT while in a different Stance is an intended change.
Udyr has been my main jungler for years now. I've played him every which way he can be played. Phoenix has amazing clear speeds and allows you to get away with only building a wit's end for damage, and tiger has always delivered amazing single target damage. I play Phoenix when we need the tank, but have always favored maxing Tiger and Bear first for the gank potential.

The recent change to how Tiger Stance works has truly bummed me out. Priming damage required timing and finesse. I would hit tiger and then switch to bear and rush in for the kill. I now had a passive with 2 stacks and I would scream into lane with a sense of urgency behind the gank to get the hit in just as the proc was about to fade. I would stun, then switch to tiger for another proc. At this point, my passive would be at 3, my attack speed would be maxed, and I could keep up on for a few more hits. If I did everything right, the damage was fantastic and would often lead to a gank if their flash was down.
I never felt like Udyr was broken since he has no gap closer or slows to help him get up and stun. I always felt that the balance to Udyr was that if he got up on someone, they deserve to hurt...but that's IF he makes it to them.

All that changed in this last patch where they stealth patched priming damage. The damage potential is gone and forces tiger players to stun first, then tiger after. This change forces me to approach in bear with only a stun and a basic attack for damage. With the recent change to the passive, I am 1 stack short on my approach speed. The loss of synergy with my passive is always gonna be there unless I want to waste mana on a stance dance for the first stack and then hit bear. I've also found that the damage follow up is not enough for a kill most of the time. The mechanics of Tiger now match the mechanics of Phoenix, but without the synergy of bear with the AoE of phoenix. Compared to phoenix stance, you traded faster jungle speed for a better gank potential and higher DPS. You also were forced to build differently and would eventually trade some livability for the added damage. Again, a fair balance. Now I feel forced to take Phoenix as the pros of it far outweigh the cons of Tiger.

Then there is the issue I have with the reason given for the change. They say that before, they felt that there was no reason to remain in tiger stance. The thing is, there has always been some incentive to stay in one stance, but greater incentive to change. Tiger's passive was an attack speed bonus and now it is an AD bonus. They are both comparable to each other so nothing has really changed. The real power behind Udyr is NOT to stay in one stance. All his abilities had something to carry over into another stance and create synergy. With phoenix, you can carry over the AoE for sustained damage. Great synergy with bear stance. Turtle gives you a health boost for when you engage with bear, more great synergy. Now Tiger gives your Bear...more attack speed. No synergy. Tiger only benefits Phoenix Stance or Turtle stance.

I also don't think Tiger Udyr was unbalanced compared to other junglers. The lack of an ult to lock down a target that so many others have makes Udyr prone to being kited and he has rarely seen play for this reason.

It appears to me that this change was directed at Top Lane Tiger and not Jungle Tiger. But, again, I cannot see why when he has no real gap closer and the burst of 2 well timed tigers is comparable to a lot of other top laners which don't suffer from the same inherit weakness. Plus, the nerf on turtle did a good enough job at removing his top lane sustain.

It seems that whoever made this last minute and stealth change to Udyr doesn't understand how Udyr is played at his core. There is nothing in his Kit that makes staying in one stance attractive. His passive alone is a testament to the idea of changing stances for synergy. All this change did was make Tiger on the whole unattractive as a means to playing Udyr.

I may be missing something here so I am asking for some more input on the matter. I would love to play Tiger Udyr again and have it not feel so stale.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Riot says that they'd are working on ways to make AD melee carries more assassin like, and then they take the one AD melee carry who is assassin like and make him terrible like the rest...

SO STUPID...


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Erich Sturmovik

Senior Member

05-09-2013

I never used this "priming" method so I see no differnce


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Grimez6969696969

Junior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich Sturmovik View Post
I never used this "priming" method so I see no differnce
If you played tiger and didn't prime it, you're just bad


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Trace On

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peligrad View Post
Riot says that they'd are working on ways to make AD melee carries more assassin like, and then they take the one AD melee carry who is assassin like and make him terrible like the rest...

SO STUPID...
Udyr isn't a melee carry. Think before you post.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Actually... yes he is... in the truest sense of the word he is.

Melee auto attacker that mainly contributes damage and builds attack damage.

AD melee carry

Your rank stats suggest you absolutely suck with Udyr... lol 28% win rate...

Here's a hint, don't correct a guy about a champion he's successful with when you are absolutely terribad with him...


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BamboodPanda

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Junior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShingle View Post
Udyr isn't a melee carry. Think before you post.
This is a discussion on the state of tiger udyr. Tiger is very much a melee carry build. You put a bunch of AD on him and his attack speed is through the roof. If you catch someone, they are dead. The motto of a Melee Carry. The Udyr you are referring to is Phoenix Udyr which is not a melee carry, but a disruptive damage soak. They are essentially 2 different things.


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BamboodPanda

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Junior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich Sturmovik View Post
I never used this "priming" method so I see no differnce
Then you missed out. It took a lot of skill to pull off, but it was the redeeming factor behind using tiger in the jungle.


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Menin

Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BamboodPanda View Post
This is a discussion on the state of tiger udyr. Tiger is very much a melee carry build. You put a bunch of AD on him and his attack speed is through the roof. If you catch someone, they are dead. The motto of a Melee Carry. The Udyr you are referring to is Phoenix Udyr which is not a melee carry, but a disruptive damage soak. They are essentially 2 different things.
That is not how i play Udyr. I play Jungle Udyr starting with Pheonix early game for fastest clear times then combination with late game Tiger. Infact I think Udyr is perfectly balanced right now other than maybe some mana issues but I always keep blue anyways.


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Tetembay

Member

05-13-2013

The last patch changes to tiger udyr are great. He does more damage with tiger now. I know you cant prime it, but the damage it does is greater than it used to be. This is why udyr has had a 2% win rate increase in the last week or so. Stop whining. He also doesn't fall off late game anymore and you can reasonably get armor pen items on him now. Thank you riot for making Udyr more Viable late game. Look me up on lolking if you like, I main udyr with around 60% win rate in silver III and rising.

two rounds of tiger, two phoenix procs, and Auto Attacks will do around 3000 mixed damage at level 18 over the course of 6-8 seconds if you have only a wriggles and zepher for damage items. (level 5 tiger, level 3 phoenix). That is insane damage. He has a late game now. GJ RIOT.

Two rounds of tiger with a turtle in between will do 2241 damage at level 18 with 151 Attack Damage if you get in 8 auto attacks. Add on 300 more true damage if you have red buff.

If you have 200 attack damage and get 8 autos in tiger stance and two Tiger procs they do a whopping 3140 Physical damage. I mean holy **** batman, better nerf Irelia.


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