Let's talk about Xerath

First Riot Post
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Aeaeros

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirosu View Post
lacking something epic huh, how bout a knockback around him on activation of siege mode? Or even a knock back in certain direction. Or when Siege mode active he has an aura for spell pen / armor pen or just some aura in general.
Both of these ideas are actually pretty cool, they can give Xerath some team utility besides damage, something he sort of lacks compared to say Lux or Nidalee.

Obviously not both ideas, but one or the other seems cool.


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Shosuko

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Senior Member

05-11-2013

I think you're looking along the right lines with his kit.

When Xerath was originally released, I remember him being shown as a sorta "turret" champion. He was supposed to be a sorta character embodiment of the turrets we currently defend, in that he was less mobile, and was able to harass a lot at range. I don't think his kit really carried this out b/c the ult 3 shot was the most "turret like" of his abilities, yet it was reserved for his ult.

When I think of turrets I think of their ability to constantly deal damage more than their ability to burst. As long as he has ammo for this aoe he will have something fun to do while in turret mode. If they were more of a dps design he could have plenty of charges while being numerically balanced as it isn't 2 shot kills... I'm thinking a along the lines of ryze pattern of casts.

I think putting his current ult as an ammo system as a non-ult is a good idea. I think this should be a smaller radius with the same delay though, sorta like kog's ult or veigars aoe. When he goes turret mode he should then gain a better radius, meaning he has to commit to lack of mobility for those aoe hits.

Like the korean post said - play with the aoe size of this, and maybe his other skill shots. During siege maybe his q can get a bit wider, or chain if he hits someone, so the influence of his siege form is a bit more team fight oriented (and visually obvious) rather than assassin burst combo oriented (which is the way I feel he is now with his 3 shot ult).


also - with what the korean post had - and my comment about being more ryze like - maybe have him gain power through mana like Ryze does. Getting an early tier and being the more spammy caster with decent poke but laking a bit in burst might be better? This mana build also leads to him building tanky, so it might compliment his "turret" persona a bit better than glass cannon caster.


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The Fizznity

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Xelnath, I just wanted to voice my support for what you're doing here. Riot has sorely needed to actually talk to their community about balance and design concerns, and I'm happy to see that happening.


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Hades Fury

Senior Member

05-11-2013

How about giving him increased AA range and AP scaling for his AA's while in siege mode? Or perhaps AoE AA's / AA's that chain off enemies like the Statikk Shiv passive? That should make siege mode a little more interesting.


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Hades Fury

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirosu View Post
lacking something epic huh, how bout a knockback around him on activation of siege mode? Or even a knock back in certain direction. Or when Siege mode active he has an aura for spell pen / armor pen or just some aura in general.
I personally think Xerath should be centered mostly on raw damage and range, and not supportive utility. It just doesn't fit into the way I think of Xerath, somehow.. He's a long range poke-burst snipe champion, and I don't want that to change..
Knockback would be decent, although I don't see the use.. Why would you go into siege mode when someone's brandishing axes at your face, instead of stun and run..


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slamor

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Maybe take Xerath's E to the next level. Make it so if you land 3 abilities on an enemy with the E, it does a 3 second silence in a large AOE. That would be awesome.


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Gamerdragon

Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
So I played around with *only* swapping R and W and retuning Barrage.

The result was that laning felt easier sooner, but either the damage was insane on W or negligible and ignorable. Going to try putting some orthogonal power on this kit, along with looking for ways to make siege mode more exciting.

FYI - increased mana cost + spell pen was insanely strong. Like... in a playtest, Xerath obliterated Volibear with near true-damage. If you guys think stacking % spell pen is weak. Whelp. Uhm. Yeah. Its nuts.

First pass notes:
  • Poke in lane was still OK.
  • W as harass (due to ammo system) - very effective, but felt unfair to the opponent
  • R as ultimate - actually felt better due to consistently having a shorter cooldown. Still lacking something... epic though.

Huh...

Well, since you're testing this already. May I ask how having Arcanopulse and Arcane Barrage as normal skills at the same time is not problematic? Especially in the early game?

How does one not overshadow the other? You have a long range nuke and...a long range nuke? There's no real utility difference, they have similar ranges, and I imagine they now have similar damage output over time. One of them will also always be weaker then the other simply because you can't level both at the same time. edit: ugh, typing at this hour...I mean one of them is always going to be weaker the other, and you can't level both at the same time.

I've always felt that has been the biggest problem with Xerath actually. He might be powerful, but his gameplay doesn't develop much outside of Locus > Nuke. When you finally get arcane barrage it doesn't feel like it introduces anything new to what you're already doing. If you were to remove arcanopulse on this new build, and gave his Arcane Barrage an extra shot or two, wouldn't he play more or less the same?


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Papy Mougeot

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
There are about 30 posts from people saying "Don't change him." Several of them are duplicates from the same posters. Yet those threads have not said "Don't change X about him."

This generic feedback says either: "I'm comfortable with him." "I like playing a champion other people don't understand" "I like playing him as a ranged assassin." or just "I like playing a champion who is hard to control".

It's impossible for me to tell from the "Don't touch him!" feedback. They need to be able to explain what aspect of his character they like. Then I can better understand which features of Xerath are:
  • Memorable
  • Unique
  • Overtuned
  • Lacking Counterplay
  • Well done

Then I can make sure we're preserving the right things, changing the bad things and creating a better Xerath experience for *everyone* in league. Including the pro-Xerath fans. (Of whom I count myself.)
So even if I hate to write, I'll try to make a good post to say what I like from xerath.

Early I like his E-Q combo because a stun is insane to follow jungle ganks so for a champion that is supposed to be a late game champ he is very good early game even if his cd are long at this moment.
His locust is not really important before I build some ap and cdr but it's still some free harrass in lane. (You can harrass from the sides of the mid lane when you are invisible for the enemy when a new minion wave is coming, it's so easy)

When you are 6 the E-R-Q-R-R(-Q) combo is very good to gank bot lane because a 1.5sec stun with the burst damage from the combo is very powerful.

But with xerath the fun is later when you have deathcap and an other ap item or later because you start to poke for crazy damage and you can kill a squishy from 1300 range only with W-R-Q-R-R with enough stuff.

The mouvement speed buff is very good too because you can use it from brush mid lane to close the gap to use your mage chain and later to replace yourself after poking/bursting them to the death.

Xerath passive is usefull because it make you tanky late game but is not necessary for me because I always build a zhonya for the high ap and the super good active and it give armor.

So if you take something from xerath then take his passive and you can change how work the magic pen (make it stack if you want). Actually the only thing I want is that xerath keep his crazy 1300 range burst with Q and R.

I think he really need better voices/animations and some work on his original skin too but it's only for people who don't have S.E.X.


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Hades Fury

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamerdragon View Post
Huh...

Well, since you're testing this already. May I ask how having Arcanopulse and Arcane Barrage as normal skills at the same time is not problematic? Especially in the early game?

How does one not overshadow the other? You have a long range nuke and...a long range nuke? There's no real utility difference, they have similar ranges, and I imagine they now have similar damage output over time. One of them will also always be weaker then the other simply because you can't level both at the same time.

I've always felt that has been the biggest problem with Xerath actually. He might be powerful, but his gameplay doesn't develop much outside of Locus > Nuke. When you finally get arcane barrage it doesn't feel like it introduces anything new to what you're already doing. If you were to remove arcanopulse on this new build, and gave his Arcane Barrage an extra shot or two, wouldn't he play more or less the same?
But Xerath is essentially MEANT to keep throwing nukes from a large distance.. I don't see what else you'd want to do as xerath..


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David Hume

Senior Member

05-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
So I played around with *only* swapping R and W and retuning Barrage.

The result was that laning felt easier sooner, but either the damage was insane on W or negligible and ignorable. Going to try putting some orthogonal power on this kit, along with looking for ways to make siege mode more exciting.

FYI - increased mana cost + spell pen was insanely strong. Like... in a playtest, Xerath obliterated Volibear with near true-damage. If you guys think stacking % spell pen is weak. Whelp. Uhm. Yeah. Its nuts.

First pass notes:
  • Poke in lane was still OK.
  • W as harass (due to ammo system) - very effective, but felt unfair to the opponent
  • R as ultimate - actually felt better due to consistently having a shorter cooldown. Still lacking something... epic though.
Xelnath, I found your epic thing. Have you watched / read Akira?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQh26wKS6f8

And then I made you a kit:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3431005

(Sorry to try to split your thread, the actual analysis of why he needs a continuously controllable beam of doom [solving the boredom problem] is xposted here, just above your post, actually.)