Simple idea for Poppy rework

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FinalFan

Senior Member

05-08-2013

People complain about Poppy's passive but her ultimate is what makes her REALLY hard to go back and try to rebalance. To be honest, it's pretty awesome that she's as balanced as she is now IMO -- people cry when they get ulted, but she doesn't win games with it as easily as people say or she'd be more popular.

Anyway! That's not exactly what this thread is about. What it's about is this: I believe I have an idea for simple changes to Poppy -- changing as little about her iconic gameplay as possible while changing what needs to be changed in order to balance her early game suffering and late game potential.

Passive: No change needed. Turret dive Poppy and you'll regret it.

Q: No major change needed. She needs either better mana costs or better mana regen (see W).

W: MAJOR CHANGE. Still movespeed and defensive stacks, but with MR along with armor, and stacks upon giving or receiving damage, not just autoattacks. Additionally, when fully stacked, in addition to the cool glow and sound effect, Poppy gains substantial health and mana regen until her stacks dissipate. This helps her sustain and trade in lane, as long as she does it continuously. It would also give her a slight edge in duels. (Alternately, no mana regen but lower mana costs of Q and E significantly.) Possibly increase speed bonus from 15-25% to 15-35%, given that so many newer champs have built-in flashes or faster movement skills. If that would be OP, fine, don't.

This benefit is meant to be relatively strong in the early game and fall off in its effect by late game. Also, it's intended to be a tradeoff for Poppy's options: Her Q is still supposed to be her main damage dealing skill, but if she maxes that first, she will have less defense and sustain; conversely, if she maxes W she will be stronger at laning but not as prepared for dishing out great damage in fights.

E: No major change needed. Some people claim her E still has a lot of buggy behavior. The only thing I've ever noticed is people getting stunned when they get pushed through a minion (not sure if intended behavior). Whatever -- clean up any issues with this skill and call it a day. Possibly lower mana cost (see W).

R: MAJOR CHANGE. This is probably the most hated thing about Poppy, and not entirely without justification. The only real options for the victims are to disable Poppy or run away. I say victims -- the one Poppy ults; the one she is attacking (maybe the same, maybe not), and the whole enemy team that is potentially discombobulated by Poppy going after the ADC or whoever.

My idea is a simple, minimalist fix: Ditch Poppy's immunity to damage. Keep the immunity to CC and extend it to the person she's ulting. Keep the damage buff on the one she ulted. This new ult can't be OP because Olaf gets the same CC immunity, a lot of armor penetration (not limited to one target), AND huge bonuses to armor and magic res. Again, this will hurt her late game unstoppability for obvious reasons, while simultaneously helping her in earlier parts of the game -- but at the same time removing one of the things that makes current Poppy infamously hard to actually finish off. As a bonus for her laning phase, the CC immunity on her target will help a lot in 1v1 duels and friendly ganks, while losing damage immunity makes enemy ganks more dangerous.

Now, having said that the change is "simple and minimalist", it will still completely and utterly change Poppy's gameplay No longer can she wantonly dive straight into the full enemy team and kill the ADC -- or if she does she'd better be able to do it in the 1.5 seconds before she dies. No longer can she endlessly turret dive, laughing at the poor sucker that thought he was safe. No longer can she bait a 4-man gank, turning it into a 1-man gank, either taking the opportunity to kill someone or just ulting the Soraka and running away cackling. Et cetera.

However, she will still be able to use her ult for very aggressive maneuvers and strong defense. She can still turret dive (perhaps with backup) and not fear getting stunned by Irelia under her turret or whatever; she can still use her ult as a way to ignore a concerted attempt to stunlock her for a fast kill. The mechanics of her ult will have greatly changed, but a lot of the "character" of it is the same.

I can understand why you'd want to rework Poppy. But surely you can agree that she should keep as much of her "personality" as possible?

Please tell me what you think of this idea. Comments, questions, reasoned objections, refinements, etc. are all welcome.


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FinalFan

Senior Member

05-08-2013

Seriously, zero posted replies? At least I got an upvote :/


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Lord Malice

Senior Member

05-08-2013

Poppy will never be viable in the new meta, you'd have to completely change her. The new meta Favors GAP closing HARD cc tanks. So you may be saying well she has a gap closer and a cc in one.. but that is sooo situational, u almost need flash just to put yourself in a position that will actually stun the target not just push the target further away from your team. Also she only has one Damaging ability , her Q, so compare her to a JAX or a Irelia or A J4, they all have gap closers they all have a hard cc,(just point and click and they stunned) but their entire kit does damage. SO they can afford to build tank and still be viable late game

Poppy has an ult that does 0 damage and 0 cc, it just makes her invulnerable.. cool but only for 6 seconds, so you have to build her with a lot of damages or that 6 seconds is completely wasted, shes an auto attacker as opposed to a burster soo she just wont ever cut the mustard. Unless of course you get super fed. BUT lets be real, that almost never happens


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FinalFan

Senior Member

05-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Malice View Post
Poppy will never be viable in the new meta, you'd have to completely change her. The new meta Favors GAP closing HARD cc tanks. So you may be saying well she has a gap closer and a cc in one.. but that is sooo situational, u almost need flash just to put yourself in a position that will actually stun the target not just push the target further away from your team. Also she only has one Damaging ability , her Q, so compare her to a JAX or a Irelia or A J4, they all have gap closers they all have a hard cc,(just point and click and they stunned) but their entire kit does damage. SO they can afford to build tank and still be viable late game

Poppy has an ult that does 0 damage and 0 cc, it just makes her invulnerable.. cool but only for 6 seconds, so you have to build her with a lot of damages or that 6 seconds is completely wasted, shes an auto attacker as opposed to a burster soo she just wont ever cut the mustard. Unless of course you get super fed. BUT lets be real, that almost never happens
Poppy's burst is pretty respectable actually, especially when she is attacking the person she ulted. She gets a lot of damage from autos, sure, but even more from Q (which is admittedly an enhanced auto but still) and E if you can land it. She's a true hybrid IMO.

Anyway, I guess you are saying she would be UP with the proposed changes. Well ok, give me the champ I describe above, and hell, make her W clean slows (like a lot of speed buff skills do) for good measure. Then you can keep on not playing her, and I can play her.


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Lord Malice

Senior Member

05-08-2013

Hey I used to Main poppy, in s1 and most of s2, but The level of skill you need with her and the amount of runes you need just for her just for top lane and just to counter the champ that your 're going against and even then you are still behind. You seriously have to greatly outplay your opponent to stand a chance. Yah a Fed poppy can 2 shot squishy champs late game but it almost never happens. I mean I wish it did, I wish it was easier to get there (Late game) but the way items work now and the way the TOP lane champs work now... I mean can you ever see a Poppy beating a Voli, or a Darius or a Quinn or, or , or or. in Top lane assuming that the players are of the same skill level.

I want to be able to play her man... But the new champs too op. The days of buying a Sheen and then snowballing the lane are over. In order to make her viable Her E would have to End in a Stun if you hit a wall OR a Knock up If you don't, it needs to be a guaranteed cc. Q is fine, it would be less expensive to make useful late game if it scaled off AD as well, but I can live with it as it is. Her W would need major buffs if they kept it the same skill, but I might be in favor of just changing this skill entirely to something that does damage and a cc of some kind, Maybe a Shield bash like Leona that slows them or stuns them or reduces their armor/MR. Her ultimate is what makes Poppy a Poppy, so I would not change this at all personally but it is a Weak ultimate in comparison to other top lane bruisers, I mean really, poppys ult currently gets used more as a survival tool now than anything else. Season 1 and 2 sure u ult someone and dive in there and makes their life miserable, but now with these dodgy ADC champs, u ULT and EZ or a Caitlin now and you cant catch them, so you turn on someone else and then the adc comes and murders you. But I still love the plays that can be made with it so maybe add a speed boost to it or something, but if you don't change her ult at all then her Q,W,E need to get revamped or Buffed so that you can be useful without the desperate need to be 3-4K gold ahead of the opposing team.


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GodfreyLionHeart

Senior Member

05-08-2013

i actually like poppy how she is now, everytime i see someone play poppy i think they will suck but they dont, this lack of play makes those real poppy players really hard to counter since not many people play poppy, thus making poppy very strong in the right hands


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CS3Narutoi

Senior Member

05-08-2013

I like your idea on W, it should solve Poppy's sustain problems.

My idea on W.

Passive: Poppy gains extra AD, lifesteal, and spellvamp(maybe even add some mana regen as you mentioned) every time she damages an enemy. Stacking up to 5 times

Active: Poppy gains bonus Armour, MR and MS.

These changes should give Poppy sustain, which she lacks, and also an ability to escape better with the tanky stats.


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FinalFan

Senior Member

05-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Malice View Post
Hey I used to Main poppy, in s1 and most of s2, but The level of skill you need with her and the amount of runes you need just for her just for top lane and just to counter the champ that your 're going against and even then you are still behind. You seriously have to greatly outplay your opponent to stand a chance. Yah a Fed poppy can 2 shot squishy champs late game but it almost never happens. I mean I wish it did, I wish it was easier to get there (Late game) but the way items work now and the way the TOP lane champs work now... I mean can you ever see a Poppy beating a Voli, or a Darius or a Quinn or, or , or or. in Top lane assuming that the players are of the same skill level.

I want to be able to play her man... But the new champs too op. The days of buying a Sheen and then snowballing the lane are over. In order to make her viable Her E would have to End in a Stun if you hit a wall OR a Knock up If you don't, it needs to be a guaranteed cc. Q is fine, it would be less expensive to make useful late game if it scaled off AD as well, but I can live with it as it is. Her W would need major buffs if they kept it the same skill, but I might be in favor of just changing this skill entirely to something that does damage and a cc of some kind, Maybe a Shield bash like Leona that slows them or stuns them or reduces their armor/MR. Her ultimate is what makes Poppy a Poppy, so I would not change this at all personally but it is a Weak ultimate in comparison to other top lane bruisers, I mean really, poppys ult currently gets used more as a survival tool now than anything else. Season 1 and 2 sure u ult someone and dive in there and makes their life miserable, but now with these dodgy ADC champs, u ULT and EZ or a Caitlin now and you cant catch them, so you turn on someone else and then the adc comes and murders you. But I still love the plays that can be made with it so maybe add a speed boost to it or something, but if you don't change her ult at all then her Q,W,E need to get revamped or Buffed so that you can be useful without the desperate need to be 3-4K gold ahead of the opposing team.
I know what you mean about needing to have the right runes to face your opponent. I agree that makes it tougher on new players. You also need to be very careful with your masteries, while a lot of other champs can just do whatever.

But I disagree about some of your other points. For instance, although Darius is extremely rough on Poppy, I don't feel the same way at all about Volibear. He naturally wants to stack health, which makes your Q hurt him more. Meanwhile, your ult adds extra damage on ignite -- you did take ignite versus Volibear, right? As for Quinn, I've never soloed as Poppy against her. I would guess she's like any other AD carry -- very very mean to you at low levels with poke and harass, but then later on you can destroy her if she gives you any kind of opportunity.

Poppy's ultimate, weak? Hahahahawut


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GlyphTsen

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Poppy's Ult isn't holding her back. She just needs minor buffs to her early game, similar to what Nasus got when he was buffed to viability. Doesn't need a GOOD early game, just a decent enough one to have a chance of making it to her awesome late game.

Adding some regen or whatever to W, adjusting skill costs and/or base manapool/regen would all do that without requiring drastic changes to her kit.


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FinalFan

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlyphTsen View Post
Poppy's Ult isn't holding her back. She just needs minor buffs to her early game, similar to what Nasus got when he was buffed to viability. Doesn't need a GOOD early game, just a decent enough one to have a chance of making it to her awesome late game.

Adding some regen or whatever to W, adjusting skill costs and/or base manapool/regen would all do that without requiring drastic changes to her kit.
Morello flat-out hates Poppy as she is now and has stated that if she ever gets popular he will nerf her, unless drastic changes are made to her as a champion. I don't see how he could be thinking of anything other than her ult.


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