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Guardians Horn discussion time.

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EndlessHelix

Senior Member

05-07-2013

Quote:
SylianEUW:
Sunfire is pretty bad on ARAM, though. There are better items in most cases. It's better on SR since it helps splitpushing. On ARAM, you will very seldom have to push alone as a tank, which means that that aspect is pretty much wasted.

Guardian's Horn seems quite good, but I'd usually get Emblem of Valor before I get that item. The active move speed is really nice for melee champions.

Also, Locket of the Iron Solari? Great item on this map. Aegis/Bulwark too, of course, but that's pretty much a given. I'd argue that Bulwark/Locket/Guardian's Horn is a good core for many tanks.


Aura items are good, but I have to disagree with you on the Sunfire cape. It's really strong on this map. It helps you push the waves, it gives you a metric ton of assists, and it gives you very relavent, consistent stats. Near perfect kill participation is really, really good. The major reason I don't like the Horn is that it offers relatively little by way of base stats. HP regen is hard to come by, but there are far better options available to start with that will actually keep you and your team alive. No-one is arguing that the active is weak on the Horn, but when the Horn is on cooldown, which is fairly often even against poke comps, it's deadweight. At least with Dorans, you get all of the stats, all of the time.

@Warrrrax: It depends on the champion, the teamcomp, and the opposing team. If you're playing characters that scale off max HP (Shen, Sejuani, Nautilus, Malphite), have innate sustain (Udyr, Shen, Hecarim, Irelia, Olaf), have innate resists (Wukong, Taric, Malphite, Irelia, Leona), or are going to be diving into the middle of the enemy team, Giants Belt/Boots is better. You cannot use the regen or the active if you're dead from the focus fire of the opposing team.

If your opponents have a poke comp with strong disengage (Lux, Kha-Zix, Alistar, Cho-Gath, Anivia for example) then Guardian's Horn is worthless early, because you cannot close with them regardless of how fast you move- building tenacity, multiple Lockets, and multiple Bulwarks is much, much better.

If your team has any spammable sustain (Taric, Alistar, Sona, Kayle, Shen) or has two or less tanks, you're way better building into Bulwark.

Horn is a good item for hard engage comps- something along the lines of Malphite, Shen, Leona, Jax, Katarina. I see it as niche item that allows a melee snowball comp to win the first teamfight, and get the gold rolling.


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SylianEUW

Senior Member

05-07-2013

Quote:
EndlessHelix:
Aura items are good, but I have to disagree with you on the Sunfire cape. It's really strong on this map. It helps you push the waves, it gives you a metric ton of assists, and it gives you very relavent, consistent stats. Near perfect kill participation is really, really good.
Pushing the waves is almost never all that relevant for a champion picking Sunfire Cape, since you will usually have an ADC or an AP. Besides, if the ADC builds life steal, you shouldn't push the waves, since it's better to have them heal up than to push a bit faster in most cases. The same thing goes with spell vamp. So pushing faster isn't a very strong argument on this map.

Getting assists isn't really helping much, since the assist gold is split based on the number of people getting assists. Unless you're the only one getting assists, you aren't really increasing the team gold by getting more assists. Furthermore, Locket of the Iron Solari's active will give you almost full assists for most teamfights. I still maintain that merely gaining assists usually isn't very important, unless it would have been a solo-kill otherwise. Even then, kills are worth less on ARAM so it's not as important as on SR.

The last point is relevant, sure. The question is, is it true? Sunfire Cape has an HP value of 1188 gold and armor value of 900, with a cost of 2650. You pay 562 gold for the passive. The defensive stats are thus not cost efficient, but the total cost might be if you really like the magic damage.

If you want armor and hp in one item, there are three items that fill this slot. Randuin's Omen, Locket of the Iron Solari and Runic Bulwark (Aegis of the Legion). I won't discuss Runic Bulwark since it should be pretty obvious by now that that item is amazing, so someone on your team should get it most of the time.

Randuin's Omen has a health value of 1319 gold and an armor value of 1400 gold, for 3100 gold. The active and the passive need to be worth 381 gold for it to be worth it. Having access to attack speed slow really helps against ADC and bruisers attacking you, and the move speed slow also helps against kiting. The active is nice when initiating, if you can keep them in place your team and you can often deal more damage.

Locket of the Iron Solari has a health value of 792 gold, an armor value of 700, a cooldown reduction value of 322 and a hp regen value of 360, for a cost of 1850. The item is cost efficient in itself, with a value of 2174 gold for 1850, giving you 324 gold excess in gold value. This isn't even counting the active. At level 5, the shield shields for 100. If you shield everyone, that's 500. More than a Giant's Belt, although in many cases you won't reach ideal shielding. At level 18, it's 230 per person, for a total of 1150 in ideal situations. Also, remember that the item is cost efficient even without this active? You could buy this item and never use the active and it's still pretty decent. Oh, and the active gives you assists, if you care about that.

Quote:
No-one is arguing that the active is weak on the Horn, but when the Horn is on cooldown, which is fairly often even against poke comps, it's deadweight.
Arguably less so than Sunfire Cape. The health on Guardian's Horn is worth 475 gold, the regen is worth 432, for a total value of 902. The cost is 1025, so you pay 118 gold for the active. Compare this with Sunfire Cape, where you pay 562 gold for the passive. The Sunfire Cape passive is pretty much useless until you engage on the enemies, while the Guardian's Horn active can be used to help avoiding skill shots and help you take less damage from poke.

Personally, I mainly use the Horn as a mini-Shurelia's. It's quite useful as that. The resistances aren't too bad either for the cost.


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cocacolalips

Senior Member

05-07-2013

I like the Horn a lot but I feel there is really and only a handful of champions where it's a worthy purchase.

I like to get it on Leona and Volibear and that's it.


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EndlessHelix

Senior Member

05-07-2013

Quote:
SylianEUW:
Pushing the waves is almost never all that relevant for a champion picking Sunfire Cape, since you will usually have an ADC or an AP. Besides, if the ADC builds life steal, you shouldn't push the waves, since it's better to have them heal up than to push a bit faster in most cases. The same thing goes with spell vamp. So pushing faster isn't a very strong argument on this map.


Uh.... Wait. Are we playing the same map? Frankly, being able to push the wave is roughly half of what this mode is about. It allows you to control where the engagements are. If a champion can't contribute toward that, it's probably not a very good champion. Assists means you can build more items to benefit the team. Yeah the gold is divided, so unless you've got someone who's extremely underfed, there's no real reason not to get a slice of the pie.

Quote:
SylianEUW:

Getting assists isn't really helping much, since the assist gold is split based on the number of people getting assists. Unless you're the only one getting assists, you aren't really increasing the team gold by getting more assists. Furthermore, Locket of the Iron Solari's active will give you almost full assists for most teamfights. I still maintain that merely gaining assists usually isn't very important, unless it would have been a solo-kill otherwise. Even then, kills are worth less on ARAM so it's not as important as on SR.


It's neither here nor there, but I find that Locket is more effective in a teamcomp that's always going to look to hard engage, but in a protracted serious of skirmishes, Sunfire Cape's magic damage adds up. The Cape's AoE covers nearly the entire width of the bridge, if you stand in the middle. I think that basically sums up the argument between the two items- Do you value consistent pushing power over soft engage?

Quote:
SylianEUW:

The last point is relevant, sure. The question is, is it true? Sunfire Cape has an HP value of 1188 gold and armor value of 900, with a cost of 2650. You pay 562 gold for the passive. The defensive stats are thus not cost efficient, but the total cost might be if you really like the magic damage.
~snipped for space~
Arguably less so than Sunfire Cape. The health on Guardian's Horn is worth 475 gold, the regen is worth 432, for a total value of 902. The cost is 1025, so you pay 118 gold for the active. Compare this with Sunfire Cape, where you pay 562 gold for the passive. The Sunfire Cape passive is pretty much useless until you engage on the enemies, while the Guardian's Horn active can be used to help avoiding skill shots and help you take less damage from poke.

Personally, I mainly use the Horn as a mini-Shurelia's. It's quite useful as that. The resistances aren't too bad either for the cost.


Personally, I find that Sunfire Cape is really strong, especially since multiple champions with it will all stack with each other. So is the passive gold efficient? Yes. Remember, it's being useful as long as there is an opposing minion wave around or and opponent around. I regard that as less conditional than the Horn.


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SylianEUW

Senior Member

05-07-2013

Quote:
EndlessHelix:
Uh.... Wait. Are we playing the same map? Frankly, being able to push the wave is roughly half of what this mode is about.
Sunfire Cape won't help much with this, though. If your team are strong enough so that you can stand in the middle of the creep wave without getting poked down or initiated on, then you probably won't need Sunfire to push, and the extra pushing power would mean less life steal for your carries. If your team isn't strong enough for you to stand close to the minions, then the Sunfire passive is wasted. In either case, it's seldom up to the melee champions to push anyway, maintaining brush control and trying to find openings for engages is often of higher priority.

Quote:
The Cape's AoE covers nearly the entire width of the bridge, if you stand in the middle.
I checked in a custom, the AoE is pretty small. It is the same size as Amumu's W.


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Zupekadia

Senior Member

05-07-2013

So I tried out a game with Singed and I got Guardian Horn since we were an all melee team vs an all poke team w/Master Yi. The Guardian Horn was interesting as it did keep me alive for the most part and the movement speed buff worked great with Singed. The item helped me close the gap between us and the enemy champs, but I think we mostly won that game cause of teamwork. The team didn't panic and we went really did well to take it to mid game where we were just tankier.

I will keep trying out the Guardian Horn as it is a decent item, but I'm not sure it's a great item for every game.


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SylianEUW

Senior Member

05-07-2013

It is not a great item for every game. If you are playing, say, an AP carry, you can probably build better items. It really depends a lot on your build and stuff. Also, if the enemy team has spammy abilities, you can use the active more often.


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EndlessHelix

Senior Member

05-07-2013

Quote:
SylianEUW:
Sunfire Cape won't help much with this, though. If your team are strong enough so that you can stand in the middle of the creep wave without getting poked down or initiated on, then you probably won't need Sunfire to push, and the extra pushing power would mean less life steal for your carries. If your team isn't strong enough for you to stand close to the minions, then the Sunfire passive is wasted. In either case, it's seldom up to the melee champions to push anyway, maintaining brush control and trying to find openings for engages is often of higher priority.


Look, if your carries are low, give them the health packs or use Heal. Lifestealing off of creeps is a lot weaker than on Summoners Rift. If you can't control the bushes with the kind of characters who build Sunfire Cape, it's probably because you can't clear the wave fast enough. If you can clear waves fast enough as a team to keep the minions on your opponents tower all of the time, it's irrelevant what vision skills you have because you will be able to zone the opponents from the bush.

I also don't see how Guardian's Horn gives you additional brush control over Sunfire Cape. If anything it gives you less. It gives you more initiating power, but the kinds of characters who want Sunfire tend to already be hard initiators who don't need the item's active much and can make engagements happen with their skills- Shen, Malphite, and Wukong being the best examples. There will usually be characters on the team who would actually want the health regen more than the flat health- Alistar, Taric, and Singed being good examples. They need to survive the initial engagement more than they need to survive the poke.

Quote:
SylianEUW:
I checked in a custom, the AoE is pretty small. It is the same size as Amumu's W.


Huh. I'll have to check that. I'm pretty sure that it's got 400 range on it, which is a bit bigger than Amumu's W- roughly the same area as Anivia's Ult.


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Purplefix

Member

05-07-2013

Range = win...simple really.


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Zupekadia

Senior Member

05-07-2013

Quote:
Purplefix:
Range = win...simple really.


Only if against an unorganized team. Get to mid-late game and range starts to lose.