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Gain 4 LP per win and lose TWENTY for one loss?

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drivas1993

Junior Member

05-05-2013

Ok I was on a 7 game win steak yesterday. I gained no more than 4 or 5 LP per win. Today I lost one game and lost around twenty four LP from that one game..... why?

I'm desperate to move out of Bronze division. I understand Bronze I is top of the division and it should be somewhat challenging to reach Silver but this is just ridiculous.

edit*
I played support for most of those wins and I play as a team. I consider myself a good player, not the best, but I normally tend too carry or help carry the game and I always play with the team. So I was not carried through those seven wins. Why am I gaining such little LP for wins and losing such a drastic amount for one loss?

Also, if you do the math that's like 5 hours of playtime just to make around 30+ points, and it only took one 45 minute game to undo over HALF of all that hard work! C'mon guys do you really think this is fair?

The MMR is there to see if where we stand is really where we belong. Well in LoL, most of the time, you are only as good as a team. That's the whole point of this game right? It's a team game. So why is Riot making it harder for the good players to rise into the same league as other good players so they can finally synergize and play good, fun games with them? The longer you keep me in Bronze the more games I will play with AFKers, unskilled players, and trolls. Seems like I will never rise into silver...


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drivas1993

Junior Member

05-05-2013

shameless bump

If any of you are having similar experiences I encourage to speak out. Whether if it's on this topic or make your own topic. The more of us that speak up the less Riot will ignore us.


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Vinsanity

Recruiter

05-05-2013

I agree completely with you, this is irritating me like crazy.

Riot, do you really believe that winning 10-20 games in a row and not losing is proving that you're a good player in order to advance into the next division? It's honestly absurd. I can get like 6 or 8 LP per win, but then get deducted a whopping 15-20 instantly. Does this really show skill to be lucky that you can win 10-20 games in a row? I don't think so.

So having unexperienced team mates or having people disconnect in a game is a variable into determining who should be advanced into the next division?

The whole process is just irrelevant into supposedly "separating" the good players from the rest when you have to account for many x-factors, not just that of yourself. It's just demeaning that you have to go through so much time and effort into accomplishing said league points and then get a huge deduction. It's working for nothing. The system does not work.


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drivas1993

Junior Member

05-06-2013

Quote:
Vinsanity:


So having unexperienced team mates or having people disconnect in a game is a variable into determining who should be advanced into the next division?



Exactly. Win:Lose ratio alone shouldn't affect how much we progress. They should come up with an algorithm that not just counts K/D/A (because of champions like supports), but other factors as well. What other factors? I don't know that's up to Riot to decide.

In the meantime, at least make it so that you gain and lose the same amount of LP per win and loss because the current system is MUCH worse; and do this ASAP.


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BaronVonSilkySox

Junior Member

05-07-2013

I went on a fairly good streak last weekend going from Silver III to Silver I over the course of it. I would gain ~20LP per win in the other divisions. But now that I'm in Silver I I gained 8LP and then 6LP for winning twice. I'm almost afraid to play now if I can lose all that from a single lost game.


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ACGIFT

Senior Member

05-07-2013

Basically, the current League Ranked system is the result of Riot trying to "Fix" something that wasn't broken.

The reason why you get huge losses but tiny gains of LP is because of the way it's rigged. (yes, rigged) While the base LP calculation works just like elo (the win/loss values are skewed based upon which team was rated better before the match; the stronger team will gain less but drop more) Riot added a second factor, which is totally disbalanced: The closer you are to entering a division series, it arbitrarily skews the LP values as if you were magically rated much higher.

This is coupled with the fact that Elo still exists invisibly, and is used for matchmaking; it's possible to be in Bronze IV and have an Elo of 1,800. All it requires is losing a tiny handful of key games at the very wrong points, but winning all the rest; according to the Elo-based matchmaker, you're a really good player (which you would be if you win 70-80% of your games) but the arbitrary League Points system thinks you suck.

Really, Riot could fix this in a balanced way simply by removing unnecessary convolution; stop the skewing of LP gains/losses when you near a Division/Rank series. Granted, this will STILL leave the game slanted in favor of keeping you in your division, (if you win every match normally but then consistently go 1W/2L in your series, you'll stay in your division but keep gaining invisible Elo) but it wouldn't be as horrifically broken; eventually if you're winning the majority of games, it'll only be inevitable you'll rack up the 2 wins to advance.

To be honest, I don't even know why Riot included that slant. There is literally nothing that makes LoL better about that particular factor; the Division/Rank series alone provide enough excitement and tension if that's what they were looking for. The slanted LP gain/loss in nearing it just frustrates players, and serves to eliminate mobility through the ranks. Perhaps that was their goal, to keep "The pros" to their existing pros and streamers... But that's suicidal of Riot, since LoL NEEDS a constant influx of new blood emerging if it's to last more than a couple more seasons.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

05-07-2013

It is true that you get scaled back as you approach 100 LP and it is incredibly frustrating. Their excuse is that your MMR is not affected, so while you're gaining 2-3 LP per win and losing 23 for each loss, that your MMR is moving completely independently and as a result as you approach 100 more times the scale down gets smaller and smaller, so eventually there is no scale if you aren't fortunate enough to have an 8 out of 10 winning streak without 2 losses in your playoffs.

See the MMR may get 50 above your LP rating, so that it begins tugging your LP gains and lessening your losses, this sounds like it's good, but it isn't. The reason is simple, any system that has to auto correct itself by artificially inflating or deflating your gains and losses on a continual basis is flawed.

Furthermore Riot argues that eventually your MMR will tug your LP to where it belongs. This is what I call the rubber-band effect. What Riot is saying is that over 30,000 ranked players and 100s of thousands of games it all averages out to be nearly perfect. Sounds good, but what they aren't telling you is that your MMR is not likely to match, within 30 points, unless you play 350+ games in a single season. And that is simply a likely to match, not a guarantee. And you're really only likely to match if you win then lose, then win, then lose, and repeat over and over, or go on very long winning or losing streaks, 10+ games. The vast majority of us experience much more erratic results, often with 1-5 game win and lose streaks.

So what factors lead your MMR and LP to not match?

1) Clamping as your approach 100 LP in your Tier
2) Harsher clamping as you approach 100 LP in any level 1 Tier (e.g. Silver 1, Gold 1, ...)
3) You cannot move down leagues regardless of the amount of losses you earn(e.g. move from Silver 5 down to Bronze 1)
4) Your LP gains are factored based off your personal LP vs. your opponents' Net LP (Rather than your team's LP vs. their team's LP) so that you could be higher than your team's average and lose being out matched but penalized because you personally where higher than them.
5) You are matched based on your MMR and not LP so you can be matched against opponents 2-3 tiers higher
6) MMR does not receive any scaling up or down ever

Fix to this mess? Easy, remove MMR, give just LP as our only rating, I shouldn't have to prove I can beat Bronze 2 players consistently to move up to Bronze 3. Lessen clamping and remove the safety net for anyone that consistently loses at 0 LP.

The only reason for the clamping is because Riot will not demote you regardless of 40 losses in a row at 0 LP in Gold 5. So that one guy who is trolling, got to Gold and clearly doesn't deserve it has a safety net and we suffer as we try to improve. So we have to prove without doubt, that not only are we not that guy, but that we can beat people 2 tiers higher than us consistently just to move up. You can thank a Red for that who has a real life friend who won't play because his ranking was artificially boosted and he knows it'll drop. So the Red made a system that allowed his 1 friend to be able to play and not lose his ELO that he clearly doesn't deserve.


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Arcticfury

Senior Member

05-07-2013

Quote:
Vinsanity:
....

The whole process is just irrelevant into supposedly "separating" the good players from the rest when you have to account for many x-factors, not just that of yourself. It's just demeaning that you have to go through so much time and effort into accomplishing said league points and then get a huge deduction. It's working for nothing. The system does not work.


Ever wonder why Riot built a system that puts the top 8% into 3 unique Leagues and the bottom 92% in 2 unique Leagues? That doesn't even make sense to a 5 year old, how can someone with a degree come up with such a whacky system? Didn't California legalize a drug recently? J/K, I was stretching for a reason, not even that would do it.


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iTurbanator

Junior Member

05-09-2013

I have had the same problem. I was in Bronze V and finally winning games; my win percentage went from 30% to now close too 42%. I won the promotion quite easily and carried the winning streak to Bronze IV. I was getting roughly 5-7 LP a win (during my 8 game win streak), than suddenly, I lost a game and was dealt -21 LP. I lost my 2nd game in a row and lost 16 LP; the inconsistent LP makes it so hard to climb up. Eventually i got demoted again due to dodging a que (because of a stubborn troll) and losing 2 matches in a row. How does Riot expect us to get better if we have to keep playing with Bronze players who don't take it seriously and just ruin other's experience!


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ICFDota

Junior Member

06-11-2013

I got 6-8 for win and 12-18 for lost, this is no way to get out..... Riot please help.