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5/03/2013 Context Post - PBE for Patch 3.07

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Dextii

Senior Member

05-03-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
He will be able to have all 3 of them up at once.

They also persist through death - as it might be slightly annoying to recollect all the buffs every time you die.

Why are you nerfing Varus and what do you think is too strong about him?

Although he's seeing some LCS play he's still considered quite sub-par when compared against Caitlyn/Ezreal/Draven


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Vsin

Senior Member

05-03-2013

That new Mickey makes me extremely happy. The old build path was really, REALLY hard to build towards, simply because nobody except Ryze can really make use of a Sapphire Crystal just sitting in their inventory.

The Nunu change actually worries me somewhat. My main issue is that while you've intended it as an extra piece of power for Jungle Nunu...the ability to select the buff you want seems extremely finicky. Overall, that ability is currently optimized when Nunu uses it every single time it comes off cooldown; this is either for raw Jungle speed, damaging objectives (Dragon/Baron) or the lane sustain. However, your switching-buff mechanic ends up working against the best case, creating a confusing pattern of either not using Consume on some given camp and absolutely gutting your Jungle speed, or using Consume and discarding the buff you wanted.

EDIT: Meh, under-explained statement is under-explained.

Additionally, it seems that the change has completely sidelined Dominion players, who have been abusing Nunu's infinite sustain lane like mad. Why? There are no "special minions" for Nunu to nom on the Crystal Scar. Come to think of it, this change also does jack diddly squat in the Howling Abyss too, again due to the lack of "special minions", and that situation is far more dire since infinite self sustain doesn't accomplish much there.


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Akumou

Senior Member

05-03-2013

what about the Elise nerf, context?


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Fox P McCloud

Senior Member

05-03-2013

So you're essentially turning Nunu's consume into Doom Bringer's Devour? I'm kinda not surprised =p

The WW QoL adjustments are ok, but they will do absolutely nothing for his overall viability, sadly =/


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

05-03-2013

Quote:

what about the Elise nerf, context?
Because some champions need to get nerfed.

Quote:

The Nunu change actually worries me somewhat. My main issue is that while you've intended it as an extra piece of power for Jungle Nunu...the ability to select the buff you want seems extremely finicky. Overall, that ability is currently optimized when Nunu uses it every single time it comes off cooldown; this is either for raw Jungle speed, damaging objectives (Dragon/Baron) or the lane sustain. However, your switching-buff mechanic ends up working against the best case, creating a confusing pattern of either not using Consume on some given camp and absolutely gutting your Jungle speed, or using Consume and discarding the buff you wanted.
He can have all three buffs at once - sidestepping this concern.

This is something we had trouble with with the original Spirit Stone items that stole monster souls - but on Nunu, it's fine to let him have all the buffs at once.


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Bagz2

Senior Member

05-03-2013

So Xyph, I hate to sound as though I'm whining, but I was just curious on what the goals of the galio adjustments are for his Q, While the decrease in mana and CD on his q are appreciated, the associated nerfs to his Slow, AP ratio and base damage just don't seem to be worth it.

So is this intended to be a nerf to galio, even though he isn't played often, or are there more changes to come and they just haven't been finalized yet, because I'm curious what the rationale is behind this change.


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GTyyy

Member

05-03-2013

Now I knew Caitlyn was going to get nerfed, any champion played over 40% of the games gets nerfed... the question is what do you touch. Do you nerf early game or late game..


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Fox P McCloud

Senior Member

05-03-2013

Anything being done for melee carries any time soon, Xyph? I would think it's abundantly clear, by now, that what itemization and changes (mastery, and otherwise) done to "help" melee ADCs either did nothing, or just ended up making bruisers or ranged carries all that much more powerful and still leaving melee ADCs in the dust. Morello briefly discussed it, and I was sorely disappointed to hear that he wants to take the easy way out and just make them effectively into assassins. That's not fixing melee ADCs, that's just removing the class/archetype from the game.


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TheOneMillion

Senior Member

05-03-2013

Quote:
Bagz2:
So Xyph, I hate to sound as though I'm whining, but I was just curious on what the goals of the galio adjustments are for his Q, While the decrease in mana and CD on his q are appreciated, the associated nerfs to his Slow, AP ratio and base damage just don't seem to be worth it.

So is this intended to be a nerf to galio, even though he isn't played often, or are there more changes to come and they just haven't been finalized yet, because I'm curious what the rationale is behind this change.


Reverted.

Also, those would actually be pretty massive buffs. Going from 4.2 seconds (Max CDR) to 3.0 would be insane.

Edit: Also xyph, how much will the 1 minion damage really help? 3 damage is a lot for sure, but in a 6 second engagement adds up to about 18-20 damage less. Is that really going to make a huge difference? And will the melee minions be lowered, since their dps is the exact same as casters (even more I believe later on)?


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

05-03-2013

Quote:

So Xyph, I hate to sound as though I'm whining, but I was just curious on what the goals of the galio adjustments are for his Q, While the decrease in mana and CD on his q are appreciated, the associated nerfs to his Slow, AP ratio and base damage just don't seem to be worth it.
As I said originally, the intent was so that Galio could have a spammy CC spell on a super short cooldown with higher CC uptime.

Galiio has trouble peeling or initiating consistently a lot of the time, because he only has one true CC spell - the intent was to lower the cooldown of the spell considerably such that Galio could grab picks and targets much more frequently.

We've since reverted that change because it felt weird in isolation. His kit just doesn't quite work as a support tank overall without some more changes.

Quote:

Anything being done for melee carries any time soon, Xyph? I would think it's abundantly clear, by now, that what itemization and changes (mastery, and otherwise) done to "help" melee ADCs either did nothing, or just ended up making bruisers or ranged carries all that much more powerful and still leaving them in the dust.
The actual win rates for the vast majority of melee carries is actually hovers around 48 to 51% in the vast majority of solo games.

Does this mean they are competitively viable? Probably not.
Does this mean they are strategically viable? Probably not.

They're hardly in the dust, however. They're actually doing well in most games. If you play these characters, you will win roughly half your games.

The problem with Melee Carries is:

1. People expect to be able to build glass and accomplish what a Ranged AD carry does. This will simply never be true, due to the nature of the game.
2. People expect Melee Carries to be consistently performing, rather than wildly swingy. This is something that won't be true, due to the nature of their kits (Fiora or Yi, for example.)
3. These characters do not have a proper strategic role to fulfill - therefore they are not viable in competitive games as they cannot be cornerstone strategic pieces.

These all point to these problems being kit-centric rather than item-centric - and the win rate data suggests that it's not a effectiveness criterion that's lacking either.

It's something more intrinsic to how we've designed these characters from a base.

The question is: Are these characters worth protecting like a carry? Can these characters output significant team fight contribution if they are protected? Right now, the answer is 'No' to both of these.

However, silly changes like buffing their damage or their health doesn't actually make them into better examples of the melee carry role. It just makes them more effective at whatever they're doing now - but what the vast majority of them are now are either fighters or assassins.

Quote:

Edit: Also xyph, how much will the 1 minion damage really help? 3 damage is a lot for sure, but in a 6 second engagement adds up to about 18-20 damage less. Is that really going to make a huge difference?
In Season 2, top laners reduced minion damage by 4 through masteries - 2 from minion block, 2 from damage block. This made them effectively immune to minion damage a lot of the time, as it was post-mitigation.

While this probably isn't going to make a huuge difference overall, it certainly helps us to not having to make bigger changes to characters than needed. Consider how many 6 second engagements there are in a typical lane scenario - and then think about us having to adjust someone's health or damage by 18-20 per engagement. It adds up.