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Feedback - Shyvana Changes

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Vermana

Senior Member

05-04-2013

I think Riot actually hates her.


1. They nerfed her entire item core, and her Jungle role, in almost every single aspect, at S3 Launch. It almost feels like they were picking on her.

2. They introduced Quinn, who then proceeded to hit on her man.

3. They got all of her Summoner friends excited by saying "Late game buffs" and then made her arguably no better than she was before, some even say worse.


What's with all the Dragon hate, Riot?


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ExaltedVanguard

Senior Member

05-05-2013

Great dragon conspiracy of '13


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copperpoint

Senior Member

05-05-2013

Im not in the PBE, but I am happy Riot is looking at her and I can get the thoughts behind this, as Shy is one of my fav champs.

E- great it hits through. makes jungle and lane easier. The reduced dmg... we dont buy ap anyway so why reduce it... doesnt really matter.
Cinder: A bit better then the armor pen , but it feels more like a renaming to me. Its not a def debuff now, but more damage.... The result is vaguely the same.

R- sounds like slightly more options, which I always like. Not so much in teamfights where it could actually be a problem. Will wait for that.

I would still love to see her scale better to the lategame.
Better tanks stats on R ?
Bigger melee range in dragon form ?
better scaling for more dmg lategame ?
And maybe ? Just for a PBE test: Imune to CC in jump ? Just testing it ?

She was a good lategame champ in S2 because the OP tank items kept her alive long enough to actually do her rather slow paced dmg.

I just hopoe this isnt the final thing on her.


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Extinction1337

Senior Member

05-06-2013

Riot hates shyvanna, everyone who plays shyvanna knows this.


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Xypherous

Systems Designer

05-06-2013

I just pulled this from the 3.7 patch.

While we want to do things to Shyvana - she just isn't testing well enough for us to be confident in shipping her in 3.7. We know that 'E' feels lackluster and that her 'R' could be cooler, we're just playing around with what specifically.


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ExaltedVanguard

Senior Member

05-06-2013

EDIT: I was typing this when he^ posted. Also tried to make post a little more readable.

Quote:
Extinction1337:
Riot hates shyvanna, everyone who plays shyvanna knows this.

Nah. I don't think they hate her. Although sometimes it certainly seems like they don't PLAY her.

Probably the #1 complaint I see about her is that any CC in the game counters her ult's leap. Everyone's reaction when they said we'd love the change to her ult? We thought they were going to make her ult immune to CC. Nope.

What does her ult do at it's very core? I makes her into a point-blank area of effect (PBAoE) spewing machine. What's the best time to spam a bunch of PBAoE? When a bunch of people are stacked on top of you. What's her current ult-leap really good at? Stacking people on top of you.

Her new ult just takes a frontliner with you to their backline to peel you right off. Any intelligent team isn't gonna let a melee champ with no gap-closer reach their backline unless you're ridiculously tanky. Your gap-closer is your ult. Your tankiness is your ult. You will pretty much never be in a situation where you can pull their carry to your team with your ult.

This could be fixed in two ways (I prefer option 1):
1) Keep current functionality, but carry ALL champions to the end of the leap. Maybe add a tiny CC at the end. Nothing major. Heck, CC might not even be needed. Worth testing, though.
2) Make it a poor-man's blitzcrank grab. A two part sweep, grab-and-run style, swoop in, grab someone, and return to cast location.

----

Her E isn't bad because it doesn't do enough damage. It does an amazing amount of damage. It's not even an issue of only hitting one target. Might be a little awkward in the jungle, but after a little practice that's not an issue either.

The problem is that it's completely contrary to the rest of her kit. What's the last thing a melee champion with no CC wants to do when they're running at someone? Stop moving. What does her E do? It makes her stop moving. So it's best used when you know they're gonna get away. But wait, it procs on hit. You wanna hit it before you attack. But you don't want to stop moving before you attack... You see how this goes it circles? The skill has no good usage pattern.

This can be fixed in two ways (I prefer option 1):
1) Promote early usage + procs by allowing her to cast it while moving.
2) Promote late usage by making it an execution move, dealing more damage based on less heatlh.

---

While we're at it, can we open up her itemization by making her ult a static CD + reduction on hit (ala Skarner) rather than use fury? Keep fury in dragon form if you wish, but it would be so nice if she could build items like Locket, Zephyr, Spirit of the XXX, etc. without wasting so much money on a stat she can't use.

CD = 150s, CDR per AA = 3s
Her ult would be exactly the same without CDR, but now benefits from having it.


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Mars Adept

Senior Member

05-06-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
I just pulled this from the 3.7 patch.

While we want to do things to Shyvana - she just isn't testing well enough for us to be confident in shipping her in 3.7. We know that 'E' feels lackluster and that her 'R' could be cooler, we're just playing around with what specifically.


I think her 'E' would be fine if she got hybrid reduction from it. I mean she only gets 15% armor reduction. Many other champions get to have much higher armor reduction and they deal mainly physical damage. Since Shyvanna deals a lot of mixed damage hybrid reduction would work benefit her greatly as well as make her more effective in teamfights because other people can benefit from her debuff.


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NVDax

Senior Member

05-06-2013

Oh no take your time, just be sure to give SOMETHING to shyv soon... Kinda have the urge to play her, but not as is.


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Asharial

Senior Member

05-06-2013

One of the most annoying things about shyvanna is that she can be knocked away canceling the damage her ultimate dash would have dealt. How come a horse and a rock are uninterruptable but a dragon isn't?


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Corseth

Senior Member

05-06-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
I just pulled this from the 3.7 patch.

While we want to do things to Shyvana - she just isn't testing well enough for us to be confident in shipping her in 3.7. We know that 'E' feels lackluster and that her 'R' could be cooler, we're just playing around with what specifically.


I'd just like to add a few cents here, as there's two directions, Shyvana as a champion, and Shyvana as the _dragon_ champion. Why do I separate these out? Because putting more power on her normal abilities is great, putting more power on the jump is great (I assume the numbers from the PBE are not refined yet since currently they're flat out nerfs, not buffs), but the more power that goes into those... the worse you feel about being the _dragon_.

Her ult is actually a loooot of things. A displacement, a gap closer, a nuke, a passive defense buff, an active defense buff, and a skill modifier that increases the aoe of her abilities. And only two of those are actually part of the dragon form (the active +10/15/20 defenses and the aoe'ing of her basic abilities).

My worry is this: If (for some reason) you had to cut Shyvana's ult in half, which would result in a stronger remaining champion? Shyvana with dragon form but no dive-displace-gapcloser, or Shyvana with dive-displace-gapcloser but no dragon form? I'm rather sure most people would, for power, keep the dive-displace-gapcloser over the dragon form. In some situations this might even be an improvement since she'd start immediately charging up a new one rather than extending the duration of a set of buffs that are usually only useful in the first few moments following the jump (when she can actually hit more than 1 enemy champ with the aoe on her abilities).

I do love the champ and I do want her to be buffed, I'm just worried the more the buffs focus on the dive part of her ult and making her basic abilities less enhanced by dragon form (Fire Breath going through targets normally is certainly nice,but what then does her ulti give it? Just wider aoe?). Fire Breath being aoe for an aoe armor shred was the most powerful part of staying in her dragon form, so if she loses the team-utility of the armor shred and fire breath is by default an aoe now, will it really feel special to use this as a dragon as opposed to human form?

Basically...
When I play Shyvana, my "I want to win give me POWER" concerns tend to be...
1. I need a lot of gold relative to other bruisers for my core items since I don't have any built in CC or easy way to drop focus off me. I gotta be able to take a lot of damage, and all I really bring is damage, so I gotta get damage too to be relevant. In return if people try to stand and fight me 1on1 they usually lose
2. If jungling my ganks are awful and I have a hard time getting this gold without the enemy making bad plays, or letting me free farm and counterjungle (Which is unlikely with the heavy ward coverage these days) extensively.
3. In lane I have no answer to ranged poke and no sustain to recover from it, and I have a TON of bad matchups making it hard to get this gold. I have good burst and awsome sustained but difficulty applying it against any sort of serious kiting or poke.


However, my "I want to be a HUGE FREAKING DRAGON!!!" concerns tend to be...
1. I don't actually want to use the ult to fight in most cases. I'd rather be human Shyvana (because my single target DPS is the same in either form) until I need the dive to reach someone, get off one round of aoe attacks that hits the enemy team... then aside from the defensive buff, I'd actually prefer to charge up another dive than stay dragon, because its super unlikely the enemy team will continue to sit in the extremely tiny frontal area my ulti-enhanced aoes hit. I should want to be a dragon for as long as possible for more reasons than just +20 armor/mr!
2. The fury seems really superfluous. This probably goes beyond the scope of tweaks, but... why do I have fury again? I don't use it like Trynd, who trades passive offensive power for an active heal, or Renekton who has to choose where to spend it on aoe damage/heal, single target damage/stun, or aoe damage/debuff. And I don't start empty and build it up over a fight, making me more dangerous the longer I fight - instead it generates naturally over time. Really... it's nothing more than a cooldown for my ulti that's reduced every autoattack, and a mechanic to extend the duration of the ulti. It's not really a resource at all because I make absolutely zero decisions on using it. I don't feel very AWSOME DRAGON with a resource system that's nothing more than a visible cooldown/duration bar.

The TL;DR part is basically... I welcome any buffs because I do like Shyvana, I'm just... I want to be a big freakin' dragon and feel epic doing it! And if I feel the best part of my kit is the dive itself and not being a dragon at the end and all I really get out of being a dragon form is a single twin bite splash (because fire breath is now aoe by default and after that first post-dive hit, catching several people in a single twin bite is terribly unlikely)... I'm not gonna feel that way. I will feel more powerful post-buff, but as a generic I-punch-things-and-knock-people-around-diving-their-carry character (and we have Vi for that), not as a dragon.