[Analysis / Discussion] Akali balance at Diamond

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VenomHazard

Senior Member

05-21-2013

Bump


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Scrampy

Senior Member

05-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by o O View Post
.
Well played. Thanks


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March of Dimes

Senior Member

05-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayath View Post
Regarding changing the effect of true vision:


Therefore, the weakness you are proposing does the opposite of its intended effect. It lowers viability in higher tiers (Buying a pink ward as support and placing it immediately after Akali shrouds is standard play for high ELO support. The only counter Akali has to that is not being in range. Clearing the ward would take too much time).

Regarding lowering base damage and increasing scaling instead:


Again, you increase a weakness that is exploited more often in high elo than in low elo.

The only real weakness exploited in low ELO is:
individual counterplay

Therefore, we have two options:
- increase individual counterplay
- heighten the skill ceiling on the champion: inaccessible power that unlocks via skill
Admittedly, they're not perfect, but can you propose any better? Personally, I think Akali's designed in such a way that counterplay is extremely difficult to introduce (800 range gap closer into dumping a spell reel). Even harder is individual counterplay.

Also, I disagree that lowering Akali's base damages wouldn't help players in low elo deal with Akali more than players in high elo. In the case that Akali got fed, the greater scaling might be harmful when shows up bot lane and wtfpwns the ADC, but it also allows her lane opponent to more effectively shut her down so she doesn't get there in the first place. Perhaps it isn't as clear cut across elo range, but it *would* provide a greater reward for skill, as those Akalis who can afford to build damage (through good use of shroud and dashes) will do significantly more damage than those who rely on the tanky magic pen build to stay alive.

The pink ward suggestion, I'll admit, wouldn't solve the problem, but at this point, I really don't know what would. I think Akali's horribly designed (no offense intended) and most defenses of her ("pink ward gg") greatly overstate the extent to which she's actually vulnerable without stealth, and hence, the amount to which such a champion CAN be counterplayed.


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Arakura

Senior Member

05-21-2013

bump


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Sayath

Senior Member

05-21-2013

We do not change for the sake of change. That's designer time wasted that could be spent better. There are enough champions who need live design interaction.

The idea here is to add new tricks / combos to the kit. What these are is up in the air. Design is iteration. You filter through hundreds of ideas to find the one that works.

The problem with cutting base damage and increasing scaling is as follows:
In low ELO I can perfectly get away with building glass cannon because I know how to outplay my opposition. As you move up in rank though you'll run into two destinct problems:
First, with a lowered base damage how are you supposed to transition to being an AP hypercarry? You pick Akali for her mid-game impact. Her lategame is severly outshadowed by ADC dominance. Therefore, by making her early game even more awful how is she supposed to suddenly have an impact? The amount of scaling you would have to allow for, in order for this approach to work out, is quite obscence.

Just take a look at the base damage into scaling change done on MotA. Yes, her early game became worse. However, the impact it had on high elo early game is more drastic than the impact on low elo early game. Simply because high elo punishes you heavier for it. The answer from Statikk in regard to increasing the ratio to 0.55: "scary" I don't believe the answer will change here. The turning point would be way too far off.

Second, there is the problem of being forced to build full glass cannon. An ADC like Vayne can be protected by her teammates. They can peel for her. They can keep her safe because she has range. Akali is melee, all-in - do or die approach.
Therefore, you run into the old Katarina scenario: Akali needs to wait until all hard CC has been wasted before she can go into the teamfight. If even just one CC lands, she is dead (glass cannon, right?).

Also, Akali is forced to build Gunblade as pointed out by Xypherous. She is punished in ratios for being able to the surpluss of statistics given. The idea should be to remove this crutch first.

Again, I can live with the idea of shifting base into scaling. However, I do not believe that I would be appropriately rewarded for it. It would end in the turning point being again at 300 AP. No thanks.

In my opinion an AP hypercarry with short range can be balanced in League of Legends. As pointed out by Statikk the problem is not as drastic as we make it out to be.


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March of Dimes

Senior Member

05-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayath View Post
We do not change for the sake of change. That's designer time wasted that could be spent better. There are enough champions who need live design interaction.

The idea here is to add new tricks / combos to the kit. What these are is up in the air. Design is iteration. You filter through hundreds of ideas to find the one that works.

The problem with cutting base damage and increasing scaling is as follows:
In low ELO I can perfectly get away with building glass cannon because I know how to outplay my opposition. As you move up in rank though you'll run into two destinct problems:
First, with a lowered base damage how are you supposed to transition to being an AP hypercarry? You pick Akali for her mid-game impact. Her lategame is severly outshadowed by ADC dominance. Therefore, by making her early game even more awful how is she supposed to suddenly have an impact? The amount of scaling you would have to allow for, in order for this approach to work out, is quite obscence.

Just take a look at the base damage into scaling change done on MotA. Yes, her early game became worse. However, the impact it had on high elo early game is more drastic than the impact on low elo early game. Simply because high elo punishes you heavier for it. The answer from Statikk in regard to increasing the ratio to 0.55: "scary"

Second, there is the problem of being forced to build full glass cannon. An ADC like Vayne can be protected by her teammates. They can peel for her. They can keep her safe because she has range. Akali is melee, all-in - do or die approach.
Therefore, you run into the old Katarina scenario: Akali needs to wait until all hard CC has been wasted before she can go into the teamfight. If even just one CC lands, she is dead (glass cannon, right?).

Also, Akali is forced to build Gunblade as pointed out by Xypherous. She is punished in ratios for being able to the surpluss of statistics given. The idea should be to remove this crutch first.

Again, I can live with the idea of shifting base into scaling. However, I do not believe that I would be appropriately rewarded for it. It would end in the turning point being again at 300 AP. No thanks.

In my opinion an AP hypercarry with short range can be balanced in League of Legends. As pointed out by Statikk the problem is not as drastic as we make it out to be.

I think you're generalizing far too much.

Does shifting some base into ratio automatically make Akali a hypercarry? No.
Does Akali being melee make her the same as all other melees (unable to build glass)? No, they don't all have 800-range gapclosers, burst damage, and/or stealth.
Is Akali unique in being outshone by ADC lategame? No, in fact she's better suited than most to dispatch the ADC.

I agree wholeheartedly that there are itemization problems to solve here too: gunblade like you've mentioned and the defensive magic pen items that emphasize high bases. I think it's cool that you and Statikk seem to have come to an understanding, but you can talk about inaccessible power and skill ceilings until you're blue in the face and it won't accomplish anything until you actually make the change. As to your sentiment that such an AP can be balanced and that the problem isn't as drastic as I've stated: I'll believe it when I see it.


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Renpsy

Senior Member

05-21-2013

I honestly think a small maybe 15-25 dmg increase on her Q is good enough to allow her early game to be easier on her. The problem I see is her early game where she has problems farming up to get her items she needs late game.


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Renpsy

Senior Member

05-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by my0w View Post
Bump
You sure like bumping huh?


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Sayath

Senior Member

05-21-2013

Well, from Xelnath's point of view Akali is supposed to be an AP hypercarry with short range.

But I'm simply not seeing the point of trading base damage for scaling. How is this supposed to achieve anything?

The effects:
- her early game becomes even weaker
- her mid / late game becomes more potent if she snowballs

Thus, the champion becomes more binary. It's either you succeed or you are useless to your team.

In general I have no problem with that.

However, the goal here is to buff her at high ELO while leaving low ELO alone. Can we do that now?
No, because the early game became equally easier for a high or low ELO opponent.

That's why I am against your change.

In essence, what you do is make her strenghts more glaring and her weaknesses more apparent equally so.


Thus, you increase reward while increasing risk at the same time. Fine. It's an AP hypercarry after all. Could work.

But we are not fixing the imbalance between high and low ELO. That was the original goal.

Regarding finding the fix:
I think we should look at champions like Syndra, Olaf, ... who heavily scale with skill and ask ourselves why that is the case. Maybe we can find a concept there that would also work for us.

Skillshots
Combo weaving
"Hard to use optimally" -style abilties

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renpsy View Post
I honestly think a small maybe 15-25 dmg increase on her Q is good enough to allow her early game to be easier on her. The problem I see is her early game where she has problems farming up to get her items she needs late game.
Increasing base damage affects low and high ELO in the same way. This is the right approach if the champion is simply underpowered at all levels of play. This is not the case with Akali, however.

We need mechanics that require more skill to use.
- Kha'Zix's Isolation?
- Riven's AA enhance?
- ....


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BicesterVillage

Member

05-21-2013

Honestly, after following this whole thread and various other pro Akali threads, I've come to a rather unwanted and sad conclusion that Akali is rather simplistic and easy to use. Please don't get me wrong, I love Akali and I've been commenting here and in other threads about the need for an Akali buff.

But after reading the post on page 101 by TheVanguard, I realize that as much as I love Akali and think that she needs a lot of skill to play, that isn't the case. She's easy to play, easy to be decent, but hard to master. Couple this with the fact that her kit is relatively strong, many average users tend to be a lot stronger than their counter parts on other similar champs. Just compare this to the simple illustration of Lee Sin by TheVanguard.

Honestly a rework is pointless; might as well delete Akali and create a new champ. Hence, as much as it pains me to admit, I think there isn't much depth that can be added into Akali's kit without making her feel different. I believe all us Akali lovers want her to feel the same, we want that satisfying proc on Q and dashing out of stealth to finish of a low health champ.

The ONLY change I think is feasible is the skill E. Q W and R should NOT be changed; they are the core of Akali in my opinion. The only way forward, as I see it, is making E into a skill shot of sorts to increase the skill ceiling. I don't know how and what would be good, but I firmly believe that E should be the only skill to change.

And even if a good E change can be made, which would serve to increase the skill ceiling of Akali, she would still be a relatively easy champ to use, relatively easy champ to be decent, but hard to master. I love Akali, and I can only hope for the better.