Karma rework - mission failed, deal with it Riot.

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GlyphTsen

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
What would you have buffed on Karma's original kit?

Her spells already had relatively low cooldowns, the mantras were useful enough without being too strong, her scaling was alright, but her problem was that she had no early game value and she fell off late game.

At least, that's the problems I had every game I played with the original Karma. Having no easily applied CC besides a 10% slow until post-12, having a shield whose only special shtick was a damage AoE if she used Mantra, having a very short range cone spell...
Several people, myself included, had many, many suggestions on what they'd have buffed. Some were not good suggestions, but there were many valid ones. Mantra cooldown reductions to be less CDR dependent, more incentives to Mantra Spirit Link, etc.

However, I'm just shocked at your conclusion that she had no early game value. Your personal experiences aside, many have pointed to her old version as having a very strong laning presence in mid or top, including many professional players in all three major regions. Generally, her lack of use was due to difficulty of play for reward (easily fixed by numbers buffs/tweaks) especially in solo queue where people often don't understand how to position themselves on your own team to make best use of her abilities, and people not being satisfied with her late-game damage when taking a solo lane (mostly a meta preference); and her relatively poor performance in a support lane.


Well, in any event, what's done is done, and Scarrizard's stance is pretty clear that he wants to keep trying with the new Karma. New Karma isn't as interesting to me, but I don't have that much of a problem with it. I DO think the rework was a failure overall, but I'm willing to let them run with it without demanding a reversion just yet, even if I miss her old passive and the gameplay that would surround it (that's the main thing I miss, though I also think that her Mantras are now much more boring and the change didn't bring about the desired "choice" that they were clearly trying to bring in).


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Peligrad

Senior Member

05-09-2013

The new Karma is amazing now... these people saying you only get 1 mantra per fight and what not are either building her wrong, have no real experience, or are just bad..

I easily get 3-4 on average. 2 even in a fast team fight.

Auto attacks give cdr and her W gives a ton of cdr since it procs a bunch of times and gives CDR with each proc.

People just don't know how to play her yet.


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LeonSilvis

Senior Member

05-09-2013

She still needs work. The mantra cd buff was nice and will help, but the only problem i have is her kit.

Q: Nice poke and spammable. But damage is very negligible late in the game. Good potential burst if you mantra Q but a bit unreliable due the delay explosion and that minion collisions can screw you over.

W: High risk but mediocre reward. You get a root but you put yourself in a vulnerable situation. Damage is high with a Mantra W with a heal, but i find no reason to even use this mantra ability late in the game when you can use it for a Mantra E or Q.

E: A shield+speed boost is nice for a single ally. The only reason why i hate this skill is it's mantra ability. An AoE Shield+speed buff just seems very very wonky. People say it's good because "it's a shurelya and locket in one skill!" but do you honestly use both at the same time to engage? Or use both during a team fight?? Only other reason i see to even use both is to disengage.

They can buff her numbers and all, but her kit still needs refining.

Old karma just had bad base values at lvl6. For a lvl 6 ability, they are all similiar to a lvl 5 ability on other champs. But she was more fun due to the fact that you can just go in and be literally tanky because of that beefy shield she has.


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niqht

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peligrad View Post
The new Karma is amazing now... these people saying you only get 1 mantra per fight and what not are either building her wrong, have no real experience, or are just bad..

I easily get 3-4 on average. 2 even in a fast team fight.

Auto attacks give cdr and her W gives a ton of cdr since it procs a bunch of times and gives CDR with each proc.

People just don't know how to play her yet.

New karma is a new champ, not karma.
I'm sure this one will fit in somewhere just like the old one did but was deleted anyway.
Except this one's abilities do not mesh well at all and are flat boring to play.


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Invictrix

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krėn View Post
It is over.
Once Riot releases a rework, it stays.

They can't just revert everything and say "Sorry guys we messed up, here's your old champion back."

And they won't rework abilities because they already changed them. What's the point of the rework otherwise?

They also start to move their resources, their programing capability, into other areas that need their attention. If you don't know how this stuff works from a business or professional perspective, you're wasting your breathe.

It's done and over with. The only conceivable modifications would be from balance changes and bug fixes only.
No I am saying that they aren't done buffing her yet. Also I think they might change an ability or maybe her passive if they feel she is still too weak that would be a ways off though.


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TealNinje

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
The thing is, Riot decided they'd go with a rework, so instead of pining after what Karma lost, I decided to look forward to the changes they've made.
I know I'm late to the party for this, but you should never forget where you came from. Never forget what you gave up to get what you have now. The things Riot has removed should repeatedly be referenced.


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waffles senpai

Member

05-09-2013

I like it. She's what riot intended her to be after the last round of patches, and I don't see any major outlying flaws.

She's different, but still good. I think her kit remains unique, and the champion too.


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PatriotBob

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wafflashizzles View Post
I like it. She's what riot intended her to be after the last round of patches, and I don't see any major outlying flaws.

She's different, but still good. I think her kit remains unique, and the champion too.
That's great, they made a new champion and it's good.
Why did that mean the original Karma had to die?

Just because the Champion is a success doesn't make the rework a success as well.


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Nakage

Senior Member

05-09-2013

Sorry, but she does a lot less damage than before. I don't care if her Q has a 1,000 to 1 scaling. I don't care if it had 1,000,000 to 1 scaling. If it doesn't hit, it does no damage. What's the point of an ability that is your main damage ability and can be blocked just by standing behind minions? Let's take a look at every ability that is blocked by minions, is a skill shot, and has 1 projectile (ashe's volley won't be here, for instance).

Ahri's Charm: Not a main damage ability, but can make your damage more secure.
Amumu's Bandage Toss: Same as charm, except hitting a minion still can secure damage/cc.
Blitzcrank's Rocket Grab: Significantly more effective than most abilities. Understandable why it can be blocked by minions.
Brand's Sear: If you land it on a blazed target, it stuns, giving so much damage potential. Not a main damage ability!
Corki's Missile Barage: Fast and really long range. Also VERY spammable. A nice harass, a big part of his damage, but not all. Also it's an ultimate!
Dr. Mundo's Infected Cleaver: Slows a ton and chunks % health. Very spammable. It's a very big portion of your damage, but the slow is insane for the fact that you can spam it.
Elise's Cocoon: It stuns. Also it can change into a crazy long range gap closer that makes you invulnerable.
Ezreal's Mystic Shot: Fast projectile speed, really long range, also applies on hit effects. With icebourne, it's a spammable AoE slow.
Jayce's Shock Blast: Alone, it's not much. With acceleration gate, one of longest range abilities in the game with a huge AoE (For being a projectile) and awesome damage. You don't even NEED to hit your target directly half the time. Also can be changed into an AoE gap closer.
Kennen's Thundering Shuriken: Does a nice amount of damage, spammable, doesn't take mana, and has potential to stun. Syncs well with his E.
Kha'Zix's Void Spike: Extremely strong harass, good sustain, good slow, also can be upgraded to have 2 extra projectiles that do the same thing. Also, when upgraded, is a really good wave clear as well.
Leblanc's Ethereal Chains: Actually sticks to target fairly well with decent range. 2 second snare and a slow on top of it while it's attached.
Lee Sin's Sonic Wave: Strong gap closer, does % health damage. One of the strongest abilities in the early game for damage and utility.
Lux's Light Binding: It hits a target and a target behind the target hit, so not sure if it belongs here.
Morgana's Dark Binding: It's a snare, it's decent range, but even better, it's a fairly wide range ability that does a bunch of damage.
Nautilus's Dredge Line: Pulls him towards a target and the target towards him. If it hits a wall, it pulls him towards the wall and halves the cooldown.
Nidalee's Javelin Toss: Probably the highest damage ability in the game that's not an ult. Also can be switched to takedown which is resourceless and does %health damage.
Quinn's Blinding Assault: Small AoE, not a lot of damage, and blinds the target. Not very strong.
Rumble's Electro Harpoon: Resourceless, strong slow, very spammable. Rumble can be in your face safely, so it's negligible that it hits minions/mediocre range.
Shyvana's Flame Breath: Goes through minions in PBE in human form, but has good scaling and reduces armor. Wasn't too amazing, but it's being changed as such. Oh yeah, it also goes through minions and is a cone of fire in dragon form, so what do you know.
Thresh's Death Sentence: Same as blitzcrank.
Urgot's Acid Hunter: Locks onto targets with his E, dealing quite a bit of damage.

This list has all single projectile (normally) abilities that (normally) are blocked by minions and (normally) aren't skill shots as of this date. So what's so special about all of these abilities? Almost every single one does more than karma's Q, and a lot of them equal to or better than karma's mantra'd Q.

Now, what about skill shots that go through (and damage!) minions? I will list the champs and explain all the champions with a * next to their name. Champs like gragas are included as they are projectile skill shots while champions like brand and karthus won't because there are no travel time. Anchored skill shots such as Mordekaiser are included for reasons explained later.

Ahri, Anivia*, Annie*, Caitlyn, Cassiopeia*, Darius, Diana, Draven, Evelynn, Galio*, Gragas, Graves, Janna, Jarvan, Kassadin, Kog'Maw*, Leona, Lissandra, Lulu, Lux, Miss Fortune, Mordekaiser, Nami, Nocturne, Olaf, Orianna*, Pantheon, Renekton, Rumble, Sejuani, Shyvana**, Sivir, Skarner, Sona, Syndra, Talon, Thresh, Tryndamere, Twisted Fate*, Twitch, Varus, Viktor, Xerath, Zac, Zed, Ziggs, Zyra*

Anivia: Tons of damage, goes through minions, can hit twice, AND stuns at the end or at activation. All of this without the need of ulting. This is what I think Karma's Q should be, even if it's only her mantra'd Q. Anivia's Q is just better in almost every way, except mana cost and projectile speed. That's it. Also, I don't see Anivia having to wait for her Q to explode after she uses it to stun. Just saying.
Annie: This is what karma should've kept. Tons of damage, goes through minions, potential to stun. Heck, if Karma kept her old Q and instead mantra made it slow (or even stun), it would be so much better than what it is right now.
Cassiopeia: Her ultimate stuns and/or slows. It damages minions while going through with them. Sure it's an ultimate, but so is mantra! You can't reduce the cooldown on mantra with your passive if you can't even hit the enemy. Also, she has a decent cooldown slow that's more effective than mantra.
Galio: So I've included an ability that passes through minions. yet doesn't damage them at the end. It's still better than Karma's Q as it slows and damages only the area it hits. It doesn't do much damage, but the fact is, it's a slow that doesn't need an ultimate backing it up. Karma's Q might as well be Galio's Q, it would make more sense.
Kog'Maw: His E slows so much more than Karma's mantra'd Q, plus it almost does as much damage! Heck, AP Kog'Maw it's a wave clear and a crazy slow. Why should Karma, a natural born AP caster, be showed up by a champion that's troll build is better?
Orianna: The ball is everything. It damages everything it goes to. It explodes when you want it to. When it explodes, everything in the path is slowed immensely (for longer than mantra Q!), damaged immensely (it's instantaneous too!), and speeds up allies who pass through it (Dayum!).

The ball also shields (For more than karma), and gives armor to whoever has the ball (What's up with that?!). Did I mention that you can blow up the ball and speed up everyone around the person who has it, without needing to ult? (That's just too broken!) Then she even has an AoE displacement ult that deals tons of damage (Well then. GG Karma)
Shyvana: Her E has always been somewhat weak just because it was just too painful to land and interrupted her flow a bit. Well, guess what. They're fixing that. How about we see some similar changes here, hmm? Oh, and it's a resourceless ability.
Twisted Fate: A triple projectile ability that's spammable, has high damage, and clears minion waves like crazy with even crazier long range. Why can't Karma have even 1 projectile that can do the same?
Zyra: And finally, an ability that goes through minions, does a bunch of damage, snares, and opens up a lot more room for more damage with her other abilities. So, all 4 of Zyra's abilities can be sync'd to be crazy good, yet Karma can (barely) sync 2 of hers. If Karma's Q went through minions, then we would be talking a lot more about syncing.

I don't understand why there is so much fear to change karma like this when there are clearly so many champions that do what she does and more. Seriously, all I want is just for her Q to go through and damage minions, or even act like galio's Q to where you can intelligently place your ability so that it's not restricted to centering the target on it. If it's a skill shot like that you can safely increase the speed at which it explodes.


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Nightfallyn

Senior Member

05-10-2013

Riot has done what they always do, they give some vague comments about how said change is not " ideal" but the right direction and then just sit on there thumbs til people grow tired of complaining. The Karma rework is not a "WIN" by any definition. Even with all the buffs she is barely breaking a 40% win rate. We went from one nonviable champ to another. Regardless weather you liked her old kit or new one she still isn't a champ you can play competitively at any ELO. All they succeeded in doing with this rework is piss off her old fan base.