Karma rework - mission failed, deal with it Riot.

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Sogreth

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Senior Member

04-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrran View Post
except not.
Except yes, it actually was


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Invictrix

Senior Member

04-29-2013

Old Karma was the worst champion in the entire game her win rate sunk to 33% at time. New Karma is weak, but at least she is normally in the low 40 percents for win rate.

Obviously Riot is going to have to buff her like they are next patch to get her to a decent standard.

Sometimes champions come out weak when they are first created and need buffs like Quinn and Sejuani. It's not a new thing it's the way the game works.


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LightCam

Senior Member

04-30-2013

I can't really see her issues:

Old Karma: Passive increase her AP as her Health get lower, Cone damage/Heal, Line Speed boost/ 1 time damage and single target slow, Shield/AOE Damage and 2 charge with mantra

New Karma: Passive lower her Mantra CD when damage an enemies champion, Skillshot AOE Damage/AOE Slow, Single damage/Self heal/Root, Shields/Speed Boost and only 1 charge of mantra

So she lose her cone aoe heal, line speed boost and 1 mantra charge, while she got a skillshot, single target root, aoe shield and a longer mantra charge. Plus her new look on her Traditional Skin is okay. Then again she's still the same champion only people start to play her a lot now I see


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Cyrran

Senior Member

04-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightCam View Post
I can't really see her issues:

Old Karma: Passive increase her AP as her Health get lower, Cone damage/Heal, Line Speed boost/ 1 time damage and single target slow, Shield/AOE Damage and 2 charge with mantra

New Karma: Passive lower her Mantra CD when damage an enemies champion, Skillshot AOE Damage/AOE Slow, Single damage/Self heal/Root, Shields/Speed Boost and only 1 charge of mantra

So she lose her cone aoe heal, line speed boost and 1 mantra charge, while she got a skillshot, single target root, aoe shield and a longer mantra charge. Plus her new look on her Traditional Skin is okay. Then again she's still the same champion only people start to play her a lot now I see
because you having not played either you wouldn't see the problem. (it's obvious you haven't. No offense).

HEr skillshot Q now is hard to hit, it's AoE is so small that it can't even explode near your tartget, it has to HIT them, it can't go through minions, it's mana costly for the damage it doesn't deal. Sure it's spammy, but if you use it like a spammy spell, the high cost makes you oom really fast and you can't use this ability for minion clearing like the old Q could be, not to mention her old Q could do well for sustain when mantra'd or help push lanes if you were safe to do so by keeping siege minions healthy for just that much longer as it healed champs and minions alike.
Mantra Q is a joke, it's weak for an ultimate. Even still, it takes away the ability to use a regular Q for a few seconds. Even worse, it is an ult that is HIGHLY inaccurate and it's not your ability to hit them, but their ability to move out of the ult's way since the only way to make this already bad ability to work, you have to be playing against idiots who don't move out from an obvious soul flare zone.

Her w is probably the worst spell in game. No joke. It's a snare (not a stun) that forces you to get into your danger zone to try staying in there for 2 seconds to have a chance to snare. The way the rest of her kit works, being squishy and then snaring them in your melee on purpose hurts.
Mantra W is counter intuitive (Funny because morello was HIGHLY against low health karma players before) because in order to use it, you have to be LOW ON HEALTH to get it to do anything. Worst thought out spell in game. seriously, for the risks, this should have been a stun to make it just a meh but okay spell, not even a good but MEH spell. considering how many have instant click stuns that do damage and have no risk potential involved (Taric/Sion)

Her shield is another horrid spell. THey wanted to make it so that her shield added something else because everyone else who had a team shield had one other advantage to them. Well, in doing so they made karma's shield strength weak beyond repair and that temp speed buff is worse than a smaller speed buff for longer duration when an ADC or character can realize "HEy, I have a speed buff, let me use it".
Mantra E had a good basis to it, stronger on main target shield, little bit of dmaage, and spread shield and instant 60% speed boost for everyone. HOWEVER. This is an ult, which means we have a
Weak 'ult' shield that you still have to wait a long time before shielding again for (old karma's shield could be used every 4 seconds, had tons more shield strength and lasted for 5 seconds instead of 4.)
Weak damage that's useless for damage for an ultimate. Heck, even sona's ult beats this in damage and it STUNS.
WEak escape/initiate for a team. USing this ability to 'sustain' a team fight is nearly useless as the shield strength is just that bad.

so, you have on E mantra'd 3 effects, but each 3 effects are bad. Could be better if you were guaranteed 3 effects that were going to WORK when used, rather than risk wasting 1 or 2 of these effects. This is why mantra shield is still VERY bad (but right now it's the only viable mantra spell in a team fight)

Mantra and her new passive are semi flawed too. Granted, they worked out one issue by making w reduce the cd on mantra by quite a bit, how many times are you going to use W in a team fight where you're just going to get yourself killed? :/ bad bad scarizard. Then add to the fact her mantras aren't that good, her base spells without mantra are REALLY bad. (I wouldn't even call her mantra'd spells better than base spells for other champions. Other champions actually have STRONGER base spells. Diana/ Lux Q > Karma mantra Q. TAric/sion/leblanc > karma mantra'd w. Janna, Morgana = > (depends on how you view it's POTENTIAL vs how likely you are to get all the effects) karma mantra E.

They complained about old karma also being a melee mage. Well, they just made it a whole lot worse by making her w and e close enough to melee and her q unable to go through people so she has to keep moving past minions or obstacles to hit her target.


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IS1cf9d4c218a71e43afee7

Senior Member

05-01-2013

bump


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LoveUnagiSushi

Member

05-01-2013

i have already say this on another post, so i will just paste it again:

"honestly i feel the team behind the new karma is prolly the same team who design Quinn and valor, one of the most terrible adc kit i ever seen

the new karma s obviously more dps-oriented, but her dps kit, the Q+W combo, is so flawed that u most likely going to kill yourself when your shield couldnt even support you like old karma does (you only have one mantra charge as well)

in summarize: just giv us back the old karma, ffs"

p/s: bump for the love and justice for old karma


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kormethar

Senior Member

05-01-2013

the old karma just needed to have lower mana cost
better auto attack animation and react (it was hard to farm with it)
she had to be considered as melee, for having more MS, armor and mr.
Diana has more range than old karma and she is more tanky.
and then we had a perfect Karma.

Not dat stupid rework. Now i don't want to play her anymore


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Thief of Space

Senior Member

05-01-2013

I remember people trying to play old Karma against me mid, was pretty obvious when she is walking up to your face to try to poke you with a 400 range cone attack (Q), after I already shot her with a laser beam and a shield shot, its like AP Tristana and Yi, can be easily shut down if you know how to deal with 'em.

Old Karma's win rate was around 28-33% tops when i was checking alot, she is still getting QoL buffs, although having her old passive and 2 mantras would of made her rework fine.


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Naokazu

Senior Member

05-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMyBassCannon View Post
What would you have buffed on Karma's original kit?

Her spells already had relatively low cooldowns, the mantras were useful enough without being too strong, her scaling was alright, but her problem was that she had no early game value and she fell off late game.

At least, that's the problems I had every game I played with the original Karma. Having no easily applied CC besides a 10% slow until post-12, having a shield whose only special shtick was a damage AoE if she used Mantra, having a very short range cone spell...
The big thing she needed was some damage on her W target, that alone would have made her damage a lot more reliable, which was one of her main issues before; her damage was Q and RE, W could either be used to slow a target, or to clothesline them (unreliably) for damage, there was no way to get both effects on one target.


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Peligrad

Senior Member

05-01-2013

I think the most recent round of buffs have made her competitive...

Her early level spells are actually impactful now. While she scales a lot better into late game because of the CDR on her mantra / rank.

I played her a bit yesterday and was very impressed with the number of mantras I could get in a team fight. I was getting a mantra every 5th spell or so post level 16.


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