Karma rework - mission failed, deal with it Riot.

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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

04-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriotBob View Post
So the rework was a failure. And buffs will fix her...
Why couldn't they just buff her original kit?
inb4 Morello parrots say "core issues"
because parroting morello is sheepish?

Does morello even get anything out of lieing about why karma couldnt be buffed?


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Betreille

Senior Member

04-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
because parroting morello is sheepish?

Does morello even get anything out of lieing about why karma couldnt be buffed?

The chance to delete one of my favorite champs.


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PatriotBob

Senior Member

04-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
because parroting morello is sheepish?

Does morello even get anything out of lieing about why karma couldnt be buffed?
Less about sheeping and more about it's already been repeated back 100 times.

I wouldn't say Morello "lied" about anything. Lying implies stating something that was false. He hasn't stated much at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
...
Buffing her would would have either been mostly ineffective, or invalidated other picks entirely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because it didn't solve the problem - it would have had the same core issues. That's the cost of the original kit that the entire game (and Karma players) have to pay
In regards to Guinsoo's rework, I agree, that was too much. But he still never states what the core issues were and why they couldn't be addressed directly. (Without destroying her kit) Stating things like Karma's kit being so bad that the entire game has to pay kinda smell of extreme exaggeration and doesn't inspire confidence.


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SCTetra

Senior Member

04-29-2013

Old Karma could have been easily buffed.

New Karma *Dharma* has some stuff they could have integrated. If you buffed Old Karma's shield to proc on allies with mantra and give it the speed boost and made her tether the same, however, have a CC where it stuns the target then boom. Old Karma is awesome.


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Cyrran

Senior Member

04-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaree View Post
Funny thing is, her win rate and play rate are still higher then before, ha.
except not.


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Cyrran

Senior Member

04-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriotBob View Post
Less about sheeping and more about it's already been repeated back 100 times.

I wouldn't say Morello "lied" about anything. Lying implies stating something that was false. He hasn't stated much at all.


In regards to Guinsoo's rework, I agree, that was too much. But he still never states what the core issues were and why they couldn't be addressed directly. (Without destroying her kit) Stating things like Karma's kit being so bad that the entire game has to pay kinda smell of extreme exaggeration and doesn't inspire confidence.
as an old karma player and main, I can tell you what the core issues were even if I don't agree with them.

Her passive is what made her abilities strong. Not the fact she had an ultimate. They like ultimates to be game changers, not the fact her passive made her (for the duration she was low) make all her effects seem close enough to adding up and over an ultimate over time since the CD was so low. But also, because of how the game works, they like people to have powerful opportunities in the form of an ultimate or MORE SPELLS in the form of transforming. Not someone who often gets to buff spells slightly more and can do it so much more often that the effects could be considered adding up to be better than most ult's if you take a mantra CD value compared to another's ult (such as take soraka's heal ultimate's CD, divide that by twelve and then +1 more use and that's how much karma's wave could heal for between each 'ultimate' soraka had. It's consistency that beats out everyone elses in exchange for snap' ult game changing ability and they don't like that. The transformers get away with it cause instead of having an ultimate, they gain 3 spells that are DIFFERENT than their other 3 entirely. What rationality this has to why karma couldn't be karma is still a bad one.

Her Q's mantra scaling was poor. It never truly got stronger since it's heal was mostly based on how much percentage of missing health they had. when leveling, it gained more base (not percent heal) while the percent heal stayed 5% which was a problem. It needed to either level it's base heal while letting AP increase the base heal or increase the percent heal while letting AP increase the percent heal still. This was the only problem with Q. It became easier to heal the LOWER rank the spell was ironically, healed nearly the same but for much less mana.

Her W while potentially powerful, still needed allies to know what to do to use it well. This has been described as her most flawed ability for many reasons, but just because it requires teammates doesn't mean it's really as flawed as they say. But they could of just changed it's effect to not need allies to run the tether through enemies. Take away the potential for damage in return for buffs/debuffs to stats other than speed to the target so that it wouldn't be completely reliant on your ally running it through them. Making mantra to an enemy cause a temp snare/stun wouldn't of been asking for too much either if you removed it's damage from clotheslining.

E. There was nothing wrong with this, but the way morello speaks, the whole using passive just to lower health then make this ability a strong third spell damage burst was against what they wanted, so I would of suggested changing her passive to something else and making this ability shield for more and deal more damage when mantra'd depending on how low the target's health is :/ that way it could be the offical TANK or ADC at low health and not karma and still see its use. But either way, this was the one skill that really had no CORE problem other than purposely lowering one's health to use it to it's full potential (or if they hated the fact that her AP scalings were ridiculously high for damage on 3 abilities, then make the base damage higher and the scaling weaker or something :/ ionno.)

As a support, old karma often purposely baited some hits on her, which most supports don't do. Why? So that the moment an ADC took damage, she could heal them for more.

As a support, old karma's kit did center around being able to use things closer up, and the mantra shield only worked if they were close to them, so that limited mantra shield to being used on ADC's like teemo, tristana, graves or melee ADCs with massive mobility.

As a support, she did one thing really well otherwise. SAVE ADC'S FROM JUNGLERS. not if you didn't ward mind you, but if you knew how to ward and could see a jungler coming down river or through bush, that shield and 20-40% speed buff back to safety made most junglers unsuccessful. Granted, this doesn't mean that you won exchanges in lane, but it made junglers ineffective.

As a mid, she was strange as she hard countered a lot of AP mids, but then also was hard countered by others (annie and brand) and people saw that she didn't exactly scale into late game damage wise. Why? because in team fights she's not doing JUST damage so you had to excuse her lack of damage for the fact she'd be able to keep a whole team alive and fighting while still providing damage. People don't want their mid to be team sustain, but the bulk of their burst damage and it seems that there is very little room for understanding if anyone doesn't.

As a top, she hard countered a LOT of top champions. Of course, being top lane, you had two builds to do. Sustain tank (spirit visage + health for high percent healing) Ap/tank (damage+ sustain) and very unusually for the pure AP route, as people aren't wanting the burst from their top lane so much as they want their initiator/bruiser types to be from top. But once again, when it comes to team fights she still is BUFFING/HEALING and doing some damage while doing it and if built tank route, she sees one other issue. She lacks hard CC, and without being focused, her healing sees lesser effects when trying to feign-peel from adcs or apcs.

Basically, I should say KARMA WORKED but people didn't like that her kit didn't fill out the role of any lane EXACTLY like one would want.
Support: Easily help ADC get a kill
Mid: provide lots of burst
Top: tanky sustain/initiator/cc.
jungle: CC, initiator, surprise attacker.

karma is none of these so she was different and that's why she had 'core' problems. Still, I thought she was awesomely efficient. It's a shame that morello couldn't articulate enough words like this to try EXPLAINING the problems.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

04-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriotBob View Post
Less about sheeping and more about it's already been repeated back 100 times.

I wouldn't say Morello "lied" about anything. Lying implies stating something that was false. He hasn't stated much at all.


In regards to Guinsoo's rework, I agree, that was too much. But he still never states what the core issues were and why they couldn't be addressed directly. (Without destroying her kit) Stating things like Karma's kit being so bad that the entire game has to pay kinda smell of extreme exaggeration and doesn't inspire confidence.
its not an exadgeration. supports are the hardest to balance especially when their rules of design are constantly changing. He seems to be saying plenty here.

If you ask the same thing 100 times youll just get the same answer because its true, balancing karma isnt easy. Even now she's a bit much but since only her E actually gives something directly to allies its alot less dangerous to make changes


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

04-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrran View Post
KARMA WORKED but people didn't like that her kit didn't fill out the role of any lane EXACTLY like one would want.
not even alech ich seems to have tried running old karma and winning in a tournament. I don't think she even had a tournament history at the time. People would jokingly show her icon as a place holder to play with the audience like they do with teemo now.


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PatriotBob

Senior Member

04-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
not even alech ich seems to have tried running old karma and winning in a tournament. I don't think she even had a tournament history at the time. People would jokingly show her icon as a place holder to play with the audience like they do with teemo now.
This was just posted in another thread. She could do well competitively...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMXZero00 View Post
Don't you mean dominated mid and carried the team?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dARV7...1sK99euCi43kIw


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IAmBruceSwain

Member

04-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriotBob View Post
This was just posted in another thread. She could do well competitively...
A professional LoL player can use a champion very well. News at 11.


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