Community Development, Two Years On: Riot Pls

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Cliff Walrus

Senior Member

05-01-2013

I think this is a terrible idea and I hate it. Having played other games with guilds and clans: competing in counterstrike 1.6/source, halo and tf2 and playing WoW for 7 years. I would really hate to see the playerbase get split up into these clans and guilds. here's why:

1. even more background info in tl;dr format: the biggest draw for me to play LoL is the same draw that had me competing in halo. the rumble pit, the solo que, not necessarily "casual" but the ability for me to say "I want to play right now" and que up to rely only with myself in a match up of skill against other people. In fact I would love to see somehow a free for all in LOL but that is not something I'm going to derail your thread with.

2. Timezones: there are no servers segregated for your timezone or the time you actively play There's (NA/EUNE/EUW/ not sure if garena is considered part of the community) you can get the nightshift guy on accident, you get the guy who is 6 hours different, there's that guy who is always connecting and disconnecting for no reason.
If you are only going to play with your guild until it get xbox huge you will be severely limited by the people you Q with.

3. Guild growth and (dis)order Lets say Math and myself start a guild. then you invite some more irl friends, then we end up inviting their irl friends then we get our online friends and start recruiting randoms from the internet. So at this point we have say 50 members. Mathmage gets into a fight with me because I suck at the game and he rages at me because he's unflexible and doesnt play fill. Our opposing circles of friends choose a side and it escalates now we have 20 people on my side and 20 people on Math's side and 10 people who arent active or are staying out of it.

I say I'm going to leave and my friends are coming with me. Math says "fine I dont need you go" I leave the guild, 12 of my friends actually leave with me the other 8 think Math is too solid a mid/adc player and they will win more if they play with Math over suck ass Cliff.
I start a new guild with my 12 friends, I'm butthurt about being kicked out and I'm butthurt at the 8 people who said I was right and they stayed. Now I dont invite anybody because I'm mad at people. We play games and we lose more people leave my guild. It whittles down to me and a group of people who dont que together and barely even talk in guild chat. I end up back wishing for more value on individualism and play solo Q.

3.*Math's Mages guild lives on!

Math starts picking up anybody fast to get the pool of people in the guild back up and he will weed out the bads later but he needs to grow it fast so he can continue to Q up anytime he wants. Well Math ends up recruiting several bads and toxic players who have the guild tag they get toxic in a game in /all chat because he is being destroyed by their jungler Rambo and the enemy team reports everyone with the guild tag. Math kicks that guy out, but Math finds a godlike adc Clint and girlfriend Jane only plays support and only plays with her bf.

Jane's not terrible but if you could get Clint to play with another support you could do a lot better, like a whole division higher. Math, Clint and Jane have been playing for a while and they are in Gold4, Math still feels like Clint and Math could get into plat if they could just get a good jungler on the team and replace Jane. Math's Mages (his team) is in a game and the enemy team has Rambo again. Math is complimenting Rambo saying sorry for that guy last time and they hit it off, end of game Math says join up with me. Rambo says yeah but only if I bring my support I play with them always.

Rambo wont jungle with out his support, Clint won't adc with out Jane and Math really wants to get plat. Another fight breaks out Rambo's pair leaves, Clint and Jane leave. Math goes back to recruiting, Math's guild mates have been flaming people in games and soon some of them get banned. Somebody they made really mad makes a forum post smearing the guild Math's Mages. Math keeps recruiting people unaware, he is recruiting based off performances he sees as good from enemy and friendly teams. he has about 1000 people in the guild. 654 of them only play adc/mid. 217 of them top/jungle. 109 support 22 are inactive (Math prunes the inactive by kicking them)

So you have a guild largely composed of the two most popular roles and an extremely hard time finding a support that is good and wants to play when you do. You have your ok team that you can play with but since you lost Rambo and Clint you are back down in silver2. Math then decides that he needs to fill the least played, lowest glory role: support. Math you find one! Crutch and you talk to them about joining and Crutch says...oh are you the same Math's Mages I saw this post about? Its on the forums it says you guys were a bunch of flamers and bads so I'm not interested. Math finds out the post has over 10k views and 17 pages of "My guild will never play with these guys"

4. Shared Elo rating

Math doesn't play with his "Bee" team that was at silver anymore. He has a roster and boy are they good! they blew away the competition in 2 days to get back up to gold4. in a week they are gold1 and they are just about ready to do the plat promotion matches. They get the promo match and they lose. They decide to take a break and come back tomorrow refreshed to win. Math's silver Bee team decides that its been too long since they got to play ranked so they get the band together and jump into a ranked game. They get destroyed, once, twice, three times they go for a fourth and lose again and again! They don't like, no sir not one bit. So Bee team decides they've had enough ranked and play normals. Math gets on when he wakes up to find out Math's Mages is back in gold4. Math says fgsfds and goes into soloQ. He is fuming about Bee team screwing up his platinum dreams. He yells at the first Bee team member to get on another big fight erupts. Math's plat bound team gets on they are also pissed, they get so pissed they kick the Bee team out of the guild! Then they go offline that night after climbing back up some to gold 2...

Little do they know that Wally Cliffterton was online for the whole thing and he saw the fight and crafty Wally Clifferton was going to leave the guild soon anyway because he thinks he is a better mid/top than Math, so what does he do? Wally gets his friends and they party up and play ranked for Math's mages. And they lose on purpose and they play all night throwing games dropping the ranking to Bronze right before they leave the guild.

5. Summation apologizing and me shutting the hell up
Several names and characters in this story are based on real people, real events and should be quoted as infallible with reverence. An entire species of cliff walrus..es..s..is was made extinct during this production.

Math I made assumptions and generalizations that you were the focus of because this is your idea. Though I used hyperbole to make myself look worse (probably because I am).

1. Tell me I'm wrong and that these things wouldn't happen. They dont now because its a huge open pool and the only factor separating anyone is skill.
2.I don't want longer que times for solo Q and I definately do not want to make it more casual.
3. You assume that every ******* is good at the role they call
4. I hope role Q wasnt a serious suggestion
5.Why cant you just have a community external to LoL, why do they have to build it into the client?
6. Community building tools does not equate to champ select problems.


Facts from my long winded fictional story:
You will have a plethora of adc/mid guys who arent that good but wont play anything else.
You will have an extremely hard time finding free agents that are good.
Support is least played lowest glory, and harder to judge about good/bad.
Having huge rosters for a team is a terrible idea if you care about rating at all.


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MathMage

Senior Member

05-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
1. even more background info in tl;dr format: the biggest draw for me to play LoL is the same draw that had me competing in halo. the rumble pit, the solo que, not necessarily "casual" but the ability for me to say "I want to play right now" and que up to rely only with myself in a match up of skill against other people. In fact I would love to see somehow a free for all in LOL but that is not something I'm going to derail your thread with.

2. Timezones: there are no servers segregated for your timezone or the time you actively play There's (NA/EUNE/EUW/ not sure if garena is considered part of the community) you can get the nightshift guy on accident, you get the guy who is 6 hours different, there's that guy who is always connecting and disconnecting for no reason.
If you are only going to play with your guild until it get xbox huge you will be severely limited by the people you Q with.
Are you under the impression that I'm crusading to get rid of solo queue? I'm not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
3. Guild growth and (dis)order <random scenario>
That was a long story to express the sentiment "Removing anonymity can lead to bad feelings and bad guild reputations if guild leaders are incompetent." You think I don't see friction among the third-party communities I participate in? But when people have faces and reputations, they tend to be more careful with them. When people have personal relationships on the line, they tend to be more careful with them. Yeah, if someone takes the solo queue ******* attitude towards his guild play, and especially if he actively tries to fill his guild with solo queue *******s, he'll rapidly **** himself over. So what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
4. Shared Elo rating
All this tells me is that Riot has to be careful about how they would implement guild ratings if they decide they want guild ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
1. Tell me I'm wrong and that these things wouldn't happen. They dont now because its a huge open pool and the only factor separating anyone is skill.
They DO happen now. They're invisible to you because they're third-party communities fighting over third-party channels, but they happen. Of course, as an absolute value they would happen much more often if steps were taking to support premade/guild play. But it's really not valid to take the worst experience a guild can have when led by an idiot and say, "See, solo queue is better because it doesn't have these problems"--as if solo queue doesn't have worse problems than groups in the average case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
2.I don't want longer que times for solo Q and I definately do not want to make it more casual.
No one wants longer queue times in the abstract; what matters is the opportunity cost. Similarly for how casual it is. Ranked solo queue will never be casual the way normals are casual, because anyone who's that casual will go play normals. But at the same time, it will never be competitive the way premades can be competitive, because it only gives the roughest approximation of skill and the crudest facsimiles of coordination and strategy. And no matter what Riot does to promote premades and community play, solo queue will always be there precisely because it's logistically easy. You're amplifying the downsides to solo queue completely out of proportion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
3. You assume that every ******* is good at the role they call
No, I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
4. I hope role Q wasnt a serious suggestion
I've brought role queue up several times, and each time it was to explain how role queue is dissonant with the goals Riot has for solo queue. How you get from there to thinking I'm advocating for role queue is beyond me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
5.Why cant you just have a community external to LoL, why do they have to build it into the client?
Third-party communities can't make their presence known to the general community. This has several major disadvantages when it comes to helping new players find in-game communities, helping bored players find alternative game modes, and helping the communities themselves attract members and/or interact with other communities. All of this info is in the OP, though it's presented as general advantages of in-client communities rather than being contrasted with third-party communities in particular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
6. Community building tools does not equate to champ select problems.
...You're right, it doesn't. Never said it does. Did you have a point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Walrus View Post
Facts from my long winded fictional story:
Bolded is why I don't take your list of 'facts' seriously. Yeah, when you get to set the circumstances, you can produce a set of 'facts' that conveniently support your position. IDGAF what you can make up. I'm part of multiple communities that don't have the issues you listed, so I'm not inclined to make decisions based on your horror stories, and I'm not inclined to judge what LoL could do with premades by the worst experiences caused by misfeatures of existing guild systems. You seem to want me to take the lesson that guilds are bad; but the lesson I draw is that badly implemented guilds are bad, which is quite different.

That said, I have to at least thank you for presenting an argument that having solo queue is better than having in-client communities. That's a viewpoint that's been missing from the discussion thus far, primarily because most people don't share it, but I'd prefer to get it out in the open and discuss its merits (or lack thereof).


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MathMage

Senior Member

05-02-2013

Bump.


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MathMage

Senior Member

05-04-2013

Bump.