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Who invented the word "Toxic"?

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Arcticfury

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
plasmatorture:
Role queue does not mean people have to queue for only 1 role. If that were the case it would be a horrible system.

Role queue should allow for multiple role selection so that if someone is fine playing anything they select all 5 check boxes. I like playing top, adc, and support - I should have the option of queuing with all 3 checked so I'm guaranteed a role I like. It's pretty simple.

And in terms of enforcing the meta? really? the game will have to fundamentally change in major ways for there to ever be a significant shift in what's most effective. When was the last time basketball's 5 positions changed? LoL is in a similar state. Yes you can play without those positions but you will usually lose. If you want to experiment play normals or with your friends. Ranked has never been and never will be a good place to convince strangers to try to break the meta. Furthermore, role queue doesn't actually prevent you from trying new things if somehow you can convince the team. Role queue is a guideline to make champ select easier - everyone gets assigned a role they want to play so then they can play that role. If you can convince your support player to hop into the jungle and try out double jungle then what's stopping you?

I think vote kick has to be implemented with this as well, though. If you're queuing as support with the intention to be a double jungler and the other 4 members of your team think that's terrible they should be allowed to vote kick you. Go experiment outside of ranked. Even if there wasn't vote kick, though, someone intentionally abusing role queue to play a role they didn't get assigned (ie queuing as support to play as a jungler) then the 4+ reports that person would get at the end of the game would certainly bring them in line quick enough.


By saying that they have 5 check boxes you are enforcing only 5 roles. There are variations that people want to use, and many of them cannot work well together, so this won't work unless you truly only want people to play support, adc, mid, top and jungler. This won't work well in ranked though it may in normals post level 20 when jungler is actually effective.


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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

04-26-2013

Quote:
Trazier:
Goal or not, that's what you did. We've (d)evolved to the point where GG (GOOD GAME) has turned into an insult, and saying it at the end of a game in which you did exceptionally well is rubbing the enemy nose in it and so report.


This just isn't true. I can see this data and know exactly the number of games that end in GGs but no reports.


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Trazier

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:

No one has been falsely reported enough to be permabanned,



Yes, I just made that point.... You echoing it kinda makes me think you didn't get what I was saying, which was that anyone permabanned is laughed at because they got punished a lot before, so they must be guilty....


....but false positives aren't overturned, or even discussed, because chatbot autoreplies, etc.


The idea that permabanned=guilty before=autoguilty now, while false positives, which are indiciations of previous guilt, can happen, but oh well that's life. I remember back when (I never believed it, but still) it was said that riot staff PERSONALLY reviews all punishments, except for warnings.



Nowadays it's changed to "Riot only reviews/signs off on permabans", meaning everything from a warning to a 2 week suspension, is entirely automated by the trollbunal. That just doesn't sit right with me.


Quote:
Lyte:
This just isn't true. I can see this data and know exactly the number of games that end in GGs but no reports.



I suppose I should've said 'is turning'. If what was gotten from my observation was that anyone who says GG is reported and banned instantly, well that was not the intention.


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Shunkwugga

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:
The vast majority of players play Normal Blind Pick, it's the most representative example we can use. Not to mention, 5+ minutes isn't enough time for strong negotiations either.



No one has been falsely reported enough to be permabanned, and I can't remember the last time a permaban was overturned. I'm not saying the system is perfect, but it is highly effective at what it is supposed to do.


I don't think any permabans were actually overturned before your time. There were a few back when Pendragon was active, but not many. If you've been around for a long time and just been silent, I could be wrong...but as far as I know, you started becoming more active and the representative of the player quality control (or whatever it's called) the moment Pendragon became nothing but a voice in the wind.


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:
This just isn't true. I can see this data and know exactly the number of games that end in GGs but no reports.

How many?


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plasmatorture

Recruiter

04-26-2013

Quote:
Noobgrenade:
Even with a multiple select role system, it assumes a limit of 5 roles. Which still stagnates stuff. And the meta has changed repeatedly since I started playing.


No it hasn't. If you claim it has you're lying.
I've been playing since beta and there has been little changes to lane set ups ever.

Remember that 0cs support and jungling are both concepts that had been around for years in DotA before LoL. Remember that many players from DotA started playing LoL. Even in beta people were jungling (I know because I was one of them), and while 0cs support wasn't really a thing champs like Soraka and Taric were essentially playing this role at times.

Eventually as players learned and got better at the game they "standardized" the meta with lane assignments of 1-1-2-j because of the importance of dragon control. Yes, ADCs were the ones mid, and the other lanes were different than what we saw today, but we still always had a jungler and two solo laners. Then there was a brief stint of the roaming meta before that got nerfed out of viability, and then finally Dreamhack with the season 1 championships that cemented 1-1-2-j as AP-AP-ADC+support-tank.

While top lane has shifted somewhat more to favor tanky bruisers now, that basic meta in terms of lane assignments has not changed in almost 3 years now.

What makes you think it's going to change significantly in the future without intentional major systemic changes from Riot?

PS: the 5 queuable roles should be something like:
Top Carry
Middle Carry
Bottom Carry
Support
Jungle

If you want to play AP bot you'd have just as much success convincing your team to try it under that system as the current system (little to none).


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Jynxed

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Noobgrenade:
Role queue means people have to queue for 1 of five roles. It assumes the existence of those roles, and ignores the existence of others. It rules out the evolution of the meta into something that could have, say, two junglers with no support, because it assumes from the get-go that there will be a support. It makes it harder to develop niche strategies. This is not acceptable.


The only people that 'don't play the meta' are five man teams. If you're in solo queue ranked, you're playing the meta.

FFS, the ALL STARS team ALONE enforces the meta. They pick:

A top player
A mid player
A jungler
An ADC player
And a Support

I mean, if Riot isn't enforcing the meta by doing that, they'd allow votes for ANYONE to play in ANY role. But that's not how it is. Like it or not, the current meta exists and it isn't going to change. Not drastically like some people might believe, not without five coordinated people. It's solo queue. Riot needs to quit with their 'We don't want to enforce the meta but everything we do enforces the meta because every time a champion is viable in any role other than what we've meta'ed them for we're going to nerf it, RIP AP Lulu and Alistar, RIP.'

I mean, give me a break, we're not that stupid, stop treating us like we are. It's pathetic.


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bufarron

Senior Member

04-26-2013

@Lyte: lobby discussions over roles:

* in ranked games, everyone agrees they will apply the current meta
* 2 or more players want the same role, and if they don't surrender that role is because:
- he gets more fun playing there
- he thinks he is the best, just because there is no indicator at the lobby... and everyone thinks they are better than the one if he doesn't get convinced

-- if the lobby can show some kind of numbers, then the team will agree or force the 'worst' at the desired role to give up...

that would be better for the team, and for both players...

then the team should judge the amount of games and how accurate the indicator is...

but that is better than nothing i think... you are right, if the player play'd few games, it won't be much correct, but it will be some... and that is better than nothing...

just my 2 cents


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Neofederalist

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Random thought:

Is it possible that very positive behavior can have a simmilar butterfly effect as extremely negative behavior?

I know from my own experience, if I'm playing ranked and request ADC for example, and my support is awesome (good attitude, great ward coverage, secures kills, sacrifices themselves, etc.) I'd be a lot more likely to agree to support someone else next game, even if its not my preferred role.

I'm wondering if champ select might be just as much a symptom as the problem. If we can get the community to be more positive as a whole, might this particular issue evaporate?


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Shunkwugga

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Zerglinator:
How many?


Probably a lot since most people tend to just leave the post-game lobby as soon as it's over and move on to the next one so no reports are ever made.

The point stands that people are afraid of trash talking because that would put them in the Tribunal. True vitriol has a place there, but comical trash talking should not get anyone punished...and there are people who are genuinely afraid of saying anything because for some reason the right to silence is in full effect here.