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Who invented the word "Toxic"?

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FrozenStorm

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:

You can say that racism or the usage of the word "f*g" has been in gaming since the beginning and is just a part of the culture. I have to ask, so what? Who says that is the way things have to be? Time and time again, the players in League have shown that they are a mature, sophisticated group that don't care for that kind of language.



Amen RiotLyte I hate the argument that 'Its online games: ppl are going to be bigots and trolls, deal with it, stop crying etc'

We don't have to accept that kind of behavior as a community if we don't want to! And I love that this community is moving in that direction / is already there. Kudos to Player Behavior for continuing that movement!


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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

04-26-2013

Quote:
Trazier:
Isn't that a stacked question? I mean, unless you're talking about normal blind pick, but is that the format you run tournaments on? No? Why use that as an example then?


The vast majority of players play Normal Blind Pick, it's the most representative example we can use. Not to mention, 5+ minutes isn't enough time for strong negotiations either.

Quote:

But if someone gets a false positive (or 2, or 3) the response is "Well, this can happen, it's unfortunate.... BUT AT LEAST (so far~My thoughts) NOBODY HAS EVER BEEN FALSE REPORTED ENOUGH TO HAVE BEEN PERMABANNED!!!" This is not how it should be.


No one has been falsely reported enough to be permabanned, and I can't remember the last time a permaban was overturned. I'm not saying the system is perfect, but it is highly effective at what it is supposed to do.


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plasmatorture

Recruiter

04-26-2013

Quote:
Noobgrenade:
Role queue means people have to queue for 1 of five roles. It assumes the existence of those roles, and ignores the existence of others. It rules out the evolution of the meta into something that could support, say, two junglers with no support, because it assumes from the get-go that there will be a support. This is not acceptable.


Role queue does not mean people have to queue for only 1 role. If that were the case it would be a horrible system.

Role queue should allow for multiple role selection so that if someone is fine playing anything they select all 5 check boxes. I like playing top, adc, and support - I should have the option of queuing with all 3 checked so I'm guaranteed a role I like. It's pretty simple.

And in terms of enforcing the meta? really? the game will have to fundamentally change in major ways for there to ever be a significant shift in what's most effective. When was the last time basketball's 5 positions changed? LoL is in a similar state. Yes you can play without those positions but you will usually lose. If you want to experiment play normals or with your friends. Ranked has never been and never will be a good place to convince strangers to try to break the meta. Furthermore, role queue doesn't actually prevent you from trying new things if somehow you can convince the team. Role queue is a guideline to make champ select easier - everyone gets assigned a role they want to play so then they can play that role. If you can convince your support player to hop into the jungle and try out double jungle then what's stopping you?

I think vote kick has to be implemented with this as well, though. If you're queuing as support with the intention to be a double jungler and the other 4 members of your team think that's terrible they should be allowed to vote kick you. Go experiment outside of ranked. Even if there wasn't vote kick, though, someone intentionally abusing role queue to play a role they didn't get assigned (ie queuing as support to play as a jungler) then the 4+ reports that person would get at the end of the game would certainly bring them in line quick enough.


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Shunkwugga

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:


1) It is correctly forcing a subset of players to consciously think about their chat resources. At the end of the day, players want to win, and they are learning about the difference between positive chat providing a distinct advantage versus the destructiveness of negative chat. We're mapping out the usage of Restricted Chat Mode, and are interested in seeing things like what ratio of messages are used for cooperation versus destruction. We're also interested in seeing how many games of Restricted Chat Mode is required before a player's personality or character fundamentally improves for the better.

2) A lot of players are self-aware of their own outbursts and rage in games and have asked to opt-in to Restricted Chat Mode voluntarily. This is interesting because for a long time, many developers and game studios have assumed that a lot (if not all) of toxic players simply lack self-awareness--they don't realize that their behaviors are toxic, or that racism isn't OK. However, through Restricted Chat Mode, we're finding a demographic of players that are very self-aware, but need help--they need a nudge in the right direction, and they can't do it alone. I often talk to the player behavior team about whether it's our responsibility to collaborate and work with players in these cases and time and time again, we find that the answer is "Yes."


How about you stop throwing time bans on people for chat related infractions, then? This solution would work best. These people are ruining the game with what they say, not how they play. Dota 2 started doing the same thing you do, with an incredibly fast turnaround...although there are a few problems with the system like chat restriction making the smart response system not function at all because it uses automatic chat. I think as long as you keep smart ping available for chat restricted players it should be fine.

As far as the reason why it's working...it's more likely because people would rather play than not play rather than change their behavior. While a good amount of people reform after a warning, I think the people who ban stack have no chance of reformation. As long as they're not allowed to talk in game, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to play. If they want to play with friends, they can use an outside service for communication. If they're throwing the game through intentional feeding or some other nonsense, then it's perfectly reasonable to permaban them...but I'd rather see permamute in place instead for people who can and do play in earnest but don't have the best track record of speech.

I've been suspended before for "toxic behavior" (read: inability to play with players who are vastly below my already low skill level) and while warranted, a mute works best for scenarios like that. I can already say while I might not speak as much, I will never make any effort to "improve myself" in that department because venting my frustration out on other players who are highly incompetent prevents something I would like to call "property damage." I'm sorry Lyte and co., but the happiness of your playerbase is significantly less important than the integrity of the walls in my house.


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Noobgrenade

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
plasmatorture:
Role queue does not mean people have to queue for only 1 role. If that were the case it would be a horrible system.

Role queue should allow for multiple role selection so that if someone is fine playing anything they select all 5 check boxes. I like playing top, adc, and support - I should have the option of queuing with all 3 checked so I'm guaranteed a role I like. It's pretty simple.

And in terms of enforcing the meta? really? the game will have to fundamentally change in major ways for there to ever be a significant shift in what's most effective. When was the last time basketball's 5 positions changed? LoL is in a similar state. Yes you can play without those positions but you will usually lose. If you want to experiment play normals or with your friends. Ranked has never been and never will be a good place to convince strangers to try to break the meta. Furthermore, role queue doesn't actually prevent you from trying new things if somehow you can convince the team. Role queue is a guideline to make champ select easier - everyone gets assigned a role they want to play so then they can play that role. If you can convince your support player to hop into the jungle and try out double jungle then what's stopping you?

I think vote kick has to be implemented with this as well, though. If you're queuing as support with the intention to be a double jungler and the other 4 members of your team think that's terrible they should be allowed to vote kick you. Go experiment outside of ranked. Even if there wasn't vote kick, though, someone intentionally abusing role queue to play a role they didn't get assigned (ie queuing as support to play as a jungler) then the 4+ reports that person would get at the end of the game would certainly bring them in line quick enough.

Even with a multiple select role system, it assumes a limit of 5 roles. Which still stagnates stuff. And the meta has changed repeatedly since I started playing. "Everyone gets the role they want" what if the role I wanted was second top? Or roamer? Or AP bottom instead of ADC? A role queue makes all of these things harder and cements an idea that they won't work.


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Trazier

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:
When has the goal ever been to get rid of trash talking?



Goal or not, that's what you did. We've (d)evolved to the point where GG (GOOD GAME) has turned into an insult, and saying it at the end of a game in which you did exceptionally well is rubbing the enemy nose in it and so report.



Look at a smattering of champion taunts... Imagine seeing that in a trollbunal chat log, imagine how much punish spamming would result?



"Me thinks you a big sissy"~Mundo
"Do you ALWAYS fight so poorly?" ~Soraka
"So many NOOBS.... Will matchmaking EVER find real balance?" ~Akali
"YOUR SKILLS ARE INFERIOR!"~Master Yi



It's a bad thing when vocalized /taunts in the game would get you banned if you typed them out in allchat.


JUST SAYIN, BRO...


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Papy Mougeot

Senior Member

04-26-2013

about chat restrictions, what do you think about even a team chat restrictions... even if iI see how it can be absurd, a team chat restriction could make people stop to spam chat flaming their team and maybe start to play again.

I'm tired of games when it come that people talk about their mates mistakes and It's not even a game anymore.

I mean if the team just spam the chat then nobody can write a thing for the next 5 min

It's just an idea to think about


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Jynxed

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:
The vast majority of players play Normal Blind Pick, it's the most representative example we can use. Not to mention, 5+ minutes isn't enough time for strong negotiations either.



No one has been falsely reported enough to be permabanned, and I can't remember the last time a permaban was overturned. I'm not saying the system is perfect, but it is highly effective at what it is supposed to do.



I think what you need to figure is what makes League so Toxic. I've played Dota, HoN, and Dota 2, and none of them have the horribly toxic blame-centric community that LoL does.

If you can figure that out, you can fix it. Honestly, one of the best things you could do is queue people who have similar report %'s with other people of their ilk.


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PapaShongo53

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:
We agree, Champ Select isn't the ideal environment for seting teams up for success right now. I talked to a few scientists recently about Champion Select, and mentioned that it's like putting 5 strangers together and asking them to negotiate a plan they all agree on within 90 seconds. The scientists laughed and said, "That's a problem we've been studying for decades."

There's no easy solution to Champion Select; in fact, it might be one of the most difficult problem spaces we've ever had to tackle. However, it's currently a major focus of the player behavior team, and we hope to fix the core issues with Champ Select and find a way to really build trust among strangers before the game even begins.


How about a system similar to honor, except for Champion types. Other players can give a +1 in category of Bruiser, Carry, Mage, Jungler, Support. Hovering over a player's portrait would show a bar graph type display, these values are relative to either +1's of other categories or number of games played.

If you get enough +1's and main a certain champion type, maybe get a Ribbon that says Great Jungler or some such.

This would give a quick glance to team mates that you other's have seen you as a good Mage, an OK Bruiser and inexperienced Carry for example. Don't allow negative votes to prevent trolling and abuse.

A potential problem here of course is players being pressured into whatever Bar is highest even if they feel like playing another role.


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GundayMonday

Recruiter

04-26-2013

Quote:
plasmatorture:
Role queue does not mean people have to queue for only 1 role. If that were the case it would be a horrible system.

Role queue should allow for multiple role selection so that if someone is fine playing anything they select all 5 check boxes. I like playing top, adc, and support - I should have the option of queuing with all 3 checked so I'm guaranteed a role I like. It's pretty simple.

And in terms of enforcing the meta? really? the game will have to fundamentally change in major ways for there to ever be a significant shift in what's most effective. When was the last time basketball's 5 positions changed? LoL is in a similar state. Yes you can play without those positions but you will usually lose. If you want to experiment play normals or with your friends. Ranked has never been and never will be a good place to convince strangers to try to break the meta. Furthermore, role queue doesn't actually prevent you from trying new things if somehow you can convince the team. Role queue is a guideline to make champ select easier - everyone gets assigned a role they want to play so then they can play that role. If you can convince your support player to hop into the jungle and try out double jungle then what's stopping you?

I think vote kick has to be implemented with this as well, though. If you're queuing as support with the intention to be a double jungler and the other 4 members of your team think that's terrible they should be allowed to vote kick you. Go experiment outside of ranked. Even if there wasn't vote kick, though, someone intentionally abusing role queue to play a role they didn't get assigned (ie queuing as support to play as a jungler) then the 4+ reports that person would get at the end of the game would certainly bring them in line quick enough.


Well said. The meta is an emergent system within an extremely complicated game structure. Very tricky to design effective strategies to control emergent systems since they arise indirectly from the ground rules defining the game system.

Or in plain terms, there's going to be a whole lot of unforeseen side effects of designing something around an unforseen side effect :-)