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Who invented the word "Toxic"?

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GundayMonday

Recruiter

04-26-2013

Question for Lyte and his team.

I've been looking at my own player data using tools like LoLKing and noticed a trend where negativity appears after obvious skill mismatches. For example, I get matched with 4 random strangers, and we play against 5 random strangers. The match-making engine works to make sure the average hidden elo on each team is as close as possible (also adjusting for weird stuff like duos and # of games played). I've noticed a lot of instances where we'll have maybe a 1700 level player and a 1200 level player in the mix on either team which creates a huge skill discrepancy when the 1200 lanes against a 1500 or even another 1700.

Those instances generate a lot of rage from the losing team, especially when the other lanes are winning with a slight edge. Not fun to go 2/0/1 top and then get instagibbed by a mid that's been fed 11 kills in the first 15 mins of the game. These mis-matches are very strongly correlated with reportable negative behavior in my sample of game data.

Is your team looking into anything like this? Just curious.


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Plan665

Recruiter

04-26-2013

Quote:
theoryyy:
Thank you for your answer on the other post by the way.


" find a way to really build trust among strangers before the game even begins" Although you might have thought about it (in fact I'm sure you did) What if there was an easy way of knowing what people usually play / are good at?



Not talking about the idea of "queuing to be mid" or whatever because that just cements the meta which is already kind of stale, but a way to know that Player X is really good with Y champion. Or that he plays it often.

Or his win/loss ratio with a certain champion.

In a very clear and easy way to notice. Wouldn't that help people? Yes there are some negative sides to this, but what can you really do?


I can easily imagine if I scroll over Champion X, a little diagram pops up next to his splash with stats that are relevant. Updating itself with the other champions. You see, imagine someone being good with Jarvan IV. He doesn't have the priority to go jungle because he's good with that champion. In fact, he could go top, even mid or in a kill lane bot. But it would sure help build the confidence you're looking for.


Win loss ratio in champion select wouldn't be good. It is already a place where people bully others into playing roles and that would just add more fuel to the fire.


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Carl Jungle

Senior Member

04-26-2013

singed


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Noobgrenade

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
huedan:
Dude - it's like you and your scientist friends are looking right over the entire situation. Players don't spend 90 seconds trying to develop a plan, they spend 90 seconds trying to pick champions - in champion select - or troll and rage at each other. Nobody is discussing the strategy for the next 30-45 minutes...

This is why we've continually suggested allow people to queue up for a specific role so that it totally eliminates the champ select / trade rage. And that "we don't want to force a meta" BS is exactly that - absolute BS. People would be more open to swapping lanes (ad/support top and solo bot) if they were playing the role they queued up for.

No. Don't enforce a meta. Bad.


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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

04-26-2013

Quote:
theoryyy:
Thank you for your answer on the other post by the way.

" find a way to really build trust among strangers before the game even begins" Although you might have thought about it (in fact I'm sure you did) What if there was an easy way of knowing what people usually play / are good at?

Not talking about the idea of "queuing to be mid" or whatever because that just cements the meta which is already kind of stale, but a way to know that Player X is really good with Y champion. Or that he plays it often.

Or his win/loss ratio with a certain champion.

In a very clear and easy way to notice. Wouldn't that help people? Yes there are some negative sides to this, but what can you really do?

I can easily imagine if I scroll over Champion X, a little diagram pops up next to his splash with stats that are relevant. Updating itself with the other champions. You see, imagine someone being good with Jarvan IV. He doesn't have the priority to go jungle because he's good with that champion. In fact, he could go top, even mid or in a kill lane bot. But it would sure help build the confidence you're looking for.


We have considered things like showing teammates your Win/Loss records on certain champions, but there's a red flag with this suggestion. On average, humans are notoriously bad at probability and statistics--this even includes smart people like doctors, lawyers and scientists.

For example, if you are in a Champ Select and someone chooses Jax and a 0-2 Win Loss record shows up... a lot of players would be instantly frustrated and politely (or not so politely!) ask the player to choose a different champion; however, realistically, 0-2 isn't a significant data point. It's meaningless.

You could argue that we wouldn't show Win/Loss until a certain number of games have played, but this creates a similar effect where if you don't have a Win/Loss record, then players lose trust because you haven't even played enough games to have your record show--it's a lose-lose situation.


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AquaBlader

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:
The reason we use the word 'toxic' is very intentional.

In our observations and research on player behavior, we find that a single source of negative behavior can ripple through hundreds or thousands of games. For example, let's say we have a game with 10 players--9 are positive, and 1 is negative. The 1 negative player is racist, rages all game, and intentionally leaves the game. This experience can negatively influence some of the other 9 positive players in the game. Some of these 9 players will play another game of League of Legends and instead of being positive, they might start the game neutral or negative. Their actions can then influence 9 other players in the game, and toxicity spreads.

A single negative action could result in thousands of games with negative incidences--this is why many of our latest experiments focus on shielding players from toxicity (Restricted Chat Mode -- forcing players to make a decision between using limited chat resources for cooperative communication, or still using it for negative purposes and being message capped), or stemming the spread of toxicity (our next experiment).





So when you released Teemo into the game you KNEW what it would do to people?


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huedan

Junior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
SavageMinnow:
nd people who think a second keep telling you "No, please don't do that." Speaking of talking right over the problem, you're completely ignoring how much that idea screws over any hope of metagame evolution by enforcing the current standard.

If "AP mid" were enforced, what would have happened to AD assassins? If Bruiser top were enforced, what would happen to ADC counter-picks. What about lane swaps, duo APs, and roaming champions? While some of those aren't popular right this instant, preventing them from ever becoming used is a stupid plan.



That's actually really interesting. Thanks for sharing that tidbit.

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Why not use Worre's Forum Enhancer Kit! (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2757820)


And expecting people to stop trash talking on the internet isn't asinine? I don't know how long you've been gaming or using the internet but trash talk has been a part of gaming since the beginning. The things people consider toxic and players receive bans for are nothing compared to some of the things that get said on national television in debates, etc, etc, etc. You aren't going to convince millions of people to act differently than a way that is acceptable beyond their monitors - but you could change and adapt the game system itself.


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Noobgrenade

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
huedan:
And expecting people to stop trash talking on the internet isn't asinine? I don't know how long you've been gaming or using the internet but trash talk has been a part of gaming since the beginning. The things people consider toxic and players receive bans for are nothing compared to some of the things that get said on national television in debates, etc, etc, etc. You aren't going to convince millions of people to act differently than a way that is acceptable beyond their monitors - but you could change and adapt the game system itself.

I don't think that anyone is expecting internet trash talk to stop. They just want to minimize it. Doing so does not require Riot stagnating the game forever.


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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

04-26-2013

Quote:
GundayMonday:
Question for Lyte and his team.

I've been looking at my own player data using tools like LoLKing and noticed a trend where negativity appears after obvious skill mismatches. For example, I get matched with 4 random strangers, and we play against 5 random strangers. The match-making engine works to make sure the average hidden elo on each team is as close as possible (also adjusting for weird stuff like duos and # of games played). I've noticed a lot of instances where we'll have maybe a 1700 level player and a 1200 level player in the mix on either team which creates a huge skill discrepancy when the 1200 lanes against a 1500 or even another 1700.

Those instances generate a lot of rage from the losing team, especially when the other lanes are winning with a slight edge. Not fun to go 2/0/1 top and then get instagibbed by a mid that's been fed 11 kills in the first 15 mins of the game. These mis-matches are very strongly correlated with reportable negative behavior in my sample of game data.

Is your team looking into anything like this? Just curious.


On average, the vast majority of matchmaking matches are pretty decent; however, one of the issues with matchmaking perception is that players use third party websites to judge the 'quality' of a match.

With the introduction of Leagues, websites typically only use a combination of tiers/divisions/LP/wins/losses to assess your effective MMR, but they aren't accurate. In fact, in many cases, players have up to 300-400 MMR difference compared to their profiles on websites. Combine this with the fact that players tend to check profiles only in major snowball losses... and you can see why false perceptions and associations can form.


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Kezzer

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Noobgrenade:
No. Don't enforce a meta. Bad.

is it not possible to have a "preferred role" choice filter without forcing a meta?
at the end of the day, the goal would be to remove a huge chunk of negotiating while still giving options. nothing physical would prevent you from taking a ap carry instead of a jungle but it would at least give youa fighting chance to not be stuck with 3 other people who want the same thing you want.

I notice lots of people play only 1 role...so when they dont getthat role...they either get mad or pick another role they cant play for **** then they are mad at:1-having a bad game in a role they hate 2-mad at potentially seeing the person who picked their role not having a good game.

These lead to losing frustration / rage / arguing for various different psychological reasons.

by having a role selector....though you can negotiate and switch role in game or switch meta...IE we want 2 top instead of a jungler...well you have 1-better chances of finding people qualified in their respective role 2-no bickering over insta lock / stealing roles and more time can be spent strategizing and figuring out a good champ chemistry.