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Who invented the word "Toxic"?

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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

04-26-2013

Quote:
Kezzer:
thats my own area of improvement and personal challenge.
ill start with the best intentions...Ill be happy i wont rage ill try to be nice or maybe just put everyone on ignore if i notice bad behaviors and not get dragged in...

then i join my first game....someone afk...noproblems
second game ..troll pick no communication feed yell at team. may give one or two feedback then give up when i notice he doesnt care.
3rd game...another afk
by that point im ready to rage. And guess who will get in more trouble, likely gonna be me.

and this happens on almost a daily basis. there are more bad days than good days.

yesterday this guy joins a game then message that he had to leave his house is on fire...i check his history, he had a leave 3 games before that...must be catching fire a lot...

There has to be a better system.

Is there a worse feeling in the world than playing like 5 games of LoL where people drag you down by leaving or trolling and you realize that you wasted all your evening doing something 100% unpleasant? You get sucked into "just one more" in hopes of getting just a normal fun game regardless of win or lose but you keep getting people that just want to ruin games.....god its a bad feeling.


We agree, Champ Select isn't the ideal environment for seting teams up for success right now. I talked to a few scientists recently about Champion Select, and mentioned that it's like putting 5 strangers together and asking them to negotiate a plan they all agree on within 90 seconds. The scientists laughed and said, "That's a problem we've been studying for decades."

There's no easy solution to Champion Select; in fact, it might be one of the most difficult problem spaces we've ever had to tackle. However, it's currently a major focus of the player behavior team, and we hope to fix the core issues with Champ Select and find a way to really build trust among strangers before the game even begins.


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Riot Wittrock

QA Analyst

04-26-2013

The word toxic is extremely useful, and I praise Riot for using it effectively and correctly. One problem though is that, much like the word 'troll', the community has somewhat bastardized its meaning and uses it improperly frequently.


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Kezzer

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:
In the social sciences, there's a term called inter-rater reliability. It's a stat that represents the level of agreement between a group of people doing a task or making a judgment. At the beginning of the Tribunal launch, Player Support staff reviewed every single case and assigned appropriate punishments. After hundreds of thousands of data points, we found that the level of agreement between players and Player Support was extremely high for the vast majority of cases; in fact, the level of agreement was over 80%.

Some of you might think 80% is a low level of agreement, but it turns out that the discrepancies are mainly because Player Support was even more strict than the average random sample of the playerbase. Given this data, we opted to slowly allow obvious, clear-cut cases be automatically punished while still maintaining Player Support review on the more ambiguous cases, or cases with severe punishments.

In saying this, we're moving more and more towards experiments where Tribunal can hand out account restrictions like Restricted Chat Mode instead of time-bans. We feel account restrictions are stronger for reform because it forces players to play games on their main account to unlock the restrictions instead of simply taking a break on a smurf account. While they are playing on their main accounts, features like Restricted Chat Mode can shield other players from their toxicity while they work on improving their behaviors and becoming more sportsmanlike.



Just curious, im all for the restricted chat experiment...heck i practice this actively n myself at time when i suspect people will troll i mute everyone in both teams proactively then i dont get dragged down by whatever **** is being spewed.

BUT

do you not feel that letting the player play with restricted chat will create bitterness and that although he cannot talk, he may just purposely play stupid / pick bad champs or roles already taken and so on to troll the team in a somewhat not too obvious or punishable manner? As much as it sounds far fetched, ive seen so much trolling in this game that i firmly believe this will happen.


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Zectra

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:
We agree, Champ Select isn't the ideal environment for seting teams up for success right now. I talked to a few scientists recently about Champion Select, and mentioned that it's like putting 5 strangers together and asking them to negotiate a plan they all agree on within 90 seconds. The scientists laughed and said, "That's a problem we've been studying for decades."

There's no easy solution to Champion Select; in fact, it might be one of the most difficult problem spaces we've ever had to tackle. However, it's currently a major focus of the player behavior team, and we hope to fix the core issues with Champ Select and find a way to really build trust among strangers before the game even begins.

If you find an amazing solution, you have to write a research article, post it to a journal, and give it to the LoL playerbase for free.

Deal?


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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

04-26-2013

Quote:
Chislayer Osiris:
If you find an amazing solution, you have to write a research article, post it to a journal, and give it to the LoL playerbase for free.

Deal?


It might have to be one of those articles where we credit an entire active community, and the editors ban me from ever publishing there again.


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huedan

Junior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
We agree, Champ Select isn't the ideal environment for seting teams up for success right now. I talked to a few scientists recently about Champion Select, and mentioned that it's like putting 5 strangers together and asking them to negotiate a plan they all agree on within 90 seconds. The scientists laughed and said, "That's a problem we've been studying for decades."

There's no easy solution to Champion Select; in fact, it might be one of the most difficult problem spaces we've ever had to tackle. However, it's currently a major focus of the player behavior team, and we hope to fix the core issues with Champ Select and find a way to really build trust among strangers before the game even begins.


Dude - it's like you and your scientist friends are looking right over the entire situation. Players don't spend 90 seconds trying to develop a plan, they spend 90 seconds trying to pick champions - in champion select - or troll and rage at each other. Nobody is discussing the strategy for the next 30-45 minutes...

This is why we've continually suggested allow people to queue up for a specific role so that it totally eliminates the champ select / trade rage. And that "we don't want to force a meta" BS is exactly that - absolute BS. People would be more open to swapping lanes (ad/support top and solo bot) if they were playing the role they queued up for.


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theoryyy

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:
We agree, Champ Select isn't the ideal environment for seting teams up for success right now. I talked to a few scientists recently about Champion Select, and mentioned that it's like putting 5 strangers together and asking them to negotiate a plan they all agree on within 90 seconds. The scientists laughed and said, "That's a problem we've been studying for decades."

There's no easy solution to Champion Select; in fact, it might be one of the most difficult problem spaces we've ever had to tackle. However, it's currently a major focus of the player behavior team, and we hope to fix the core issues with Champ Select and find a way to really build trust among strangers before the game even begins.


Thank you for your answer on the other post by the way.


" find a way to really build trust among strangers before the game even begins" Although you might have thought about it (in fact I'm sure you did) What if there was an easy way of knowing what people usually play / are good at?



Not talking about the idea of "queuing to be mid" or whatever because that just cements the meta which is already kind of stale, but a way to know that Player X is really good with Y champion. Or that he plays it often.

Or his win/loss ratio with a certain champion.

In a very clear and easy way to notice. Wouldn't that help people? Yes there are some negative sides to this, but what can you really do?


I can easily imagine if I scroll over Champion X, a little diagram pops up next to his splash with stats that are relevant. Updating itself with the other champions. You see, imagine someone being good with Jarvan IV. He doesn't have the priority to go jungle because he's good with that champion. In fact, he could go top, even mid or in a kill lane bot. But it would sure help build the confidence you're looking for.


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Kezzer

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
Lyte:
We agree, Champ Select isn't the ideal environment for seting teams up for success right now. I talked to a few scientists recently about Champion Select, and mentioned that it's like putting 5 strangers together and asking them to negotiate a plan they all agree on within 90 seconds. The scientists laughed and said, "That's a problem we've been studying for decades."

There's no easy solution to Champion Select; in fact, it might be one of the most difficult problem spaces we've ever had to tackle. However, it's currently a major focus of the player behavior team, and we hope to fix the core issues with Champ Select and find a way to really build trust among strangers before the game even begins.


What about a role preference interface when queuing? IE: check in order of priority one of the following roles: jungle, top, support, mid, carry
then match people based on those to try and have one of each roles.

Dont put any physical restrictions but i find a lot of problems come when you have 2 guys wanting adc for instance and the first one is just being a jerk and auto lock it then the other is pissed off and pick a troll pick etc.
if you managed to match people with other role preferences, then you probably improve the likelihood of a successful champ select by a huge percentage. You also avoid scenarios where a guy like me for instance who know he cant jungle for his life is stuck jungler because everyone else locked on the other roles.

the EA NHL online team play has the same issue...tey let you figure out what position you want after everyone is together instead of before...so what happens? 3 goalies in one room the first one to lock on gets it the other 2 either leave resulting in a 4 player game instead of 6 or worse, they stay and pick a position they dont want to play and play like idiots all game or flat out troll by scoring in their own nets.

The easy fix is the same exact one im proposing here which for some reason EA acknowledged but never has prioritized fix for.

I think the idea has merits. it cant hurt for sure.

Edit: You would need an interface that tells people what the queue gave you from your priorities. IE if you picked support then ADC but the queue found you adc role then it should tell everyone to avoid confusion.


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Lyte

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

04-26-2013

Quote:
Kezzer:
Just curious, im all for the restricted chat experiment...heck i practice this actively n myself at time when i suspect people will troll i mute everyone in both teams proactively then i dont get dragged down by whatever **** is being spewed.

BUT

do you not feel that letting the player play with restricted chat will create bitterness and that although he cannot talk, he may just purposely play stupid / pick bad champs or roles already taken and so on to troll the team in a somewhat not too obvious or punishable manner? As much as it sounds far fetched, ive seen so much trolling in this game that i firmly believe this will happen.


On the player behavior team, we take a lot of risks. We have to because we're often pushing boundaries on what's been tried before in the online community space. We have very little prior history, documentation, or references to learn from so we really have little information on how a player might react in a pressure situation with something like Restricted Chat Mode. We simply take what we can from psychology, cognition and neuroscience and try to make the best decisions given the limited knowledge and data we do have.

We'll make mistakes. I know we will. However, for every experiment, we reveal a few more insights about psychology and a few more insights about human behavior in general. We're going to keep trying new things, and we're going to keep learning--that's all I can ask of the player behavior team.

So far, we've learned a few interesting things already from the Restricted Chat Mode experiment:

1) It is correctly forcing a subset of players to consciously think about their chat resources. At the end of the day, players want to win, and they are learning about the difference between positive chat providing a distinct advantage versus the destructiveness of negative chat. We're mapping out the usage of Restricted Chat Mode, and are interested in seeing things like what ratio of messages are used for cooperation versus destruction. We're also interested in seeing how many games of Restricted Chat Mode is required before a player's personality or character fundamentally improves for the better.

2) A lot of players are self-aware of their own outbursts and rage in games and have asked to opt-in to Restricted Chat Mode voluntarily. This is interesting because for a long time, many developers and game studios have assumed that a lot (if not all) of toxic players simply lack self-awareness--they don't realize that their behaviors are toxic, or that racism isn't OK. However, through Restricted Chat Mode, we're finding a demographic of players that are very self-aware, but need help--they need a nudge in the right direction, and they can't do it alone. I often talk to the player behavior team about whether it's our responsibility to collaborate and work with players in these cases and time and time again, we find that the answer is "Yes."


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SavageMinnow

Senior Member

04-26-2013

Quote:
huedan:
Dude - it's like you and your scientist friends are looking right over the entire situation. Players don't spend 90 seconds trying to develop a plan, they spend 90 seconds trying to pick champions - in champion select - or troll and rage at each other. Nobody is discussing the strategy for the next 30-45 minutes...

This is why we've continually suggested allow people to queue up for a specific role so that it totally eliminates the champ select / trade rage. And that "we don't want to force a meta" BS is exactly that - absolute BS. People would be more open to swapping lanes (ad/support top and solo bot) if they were playing the role they queued up for.


nd people who think a second keep telling you "No, please don't do that." Speaking of talking right over the problem, you're completely ignoring how much that idea screws over any hope of metagame evolution by enforcing the current standard.

If "AP mid" were enforced, what would have happened to AD assassins? If Bruiser top were enforced, what would happen to ADC counter-picks. What about lane swaps, duo APs, and roaming champions? While some of those aren't popular right this instant, preventing them from ever becoming used is a stupid plan.

Quote:
Lyte:
~snip~
2) A lot of players are self-aware of their own outbursts and rage in games and have asked to opt-in to Restricted Chat Mode voluntarily. This is interesting because for a long time, many developers and game studios have assumed that a lot (if not all) of toxic players simply lack self-awareness--they don't realize that their behaviors are toxic, or that racism isn't OK. However, through Restricted Chat Mode, we're finding a demographic of players that are very self-aware, but need help--they need a nudge in the right direction, and they can't do it alone. I often talk to the player behavior team about whether it's our responsibility to collaborate and work with players in these cases and time and time again, we find that the answer is "Yes."


That's actually really interesting. Thanks for sharing that tidbit.

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