Community: "Buff Fiora" / Riot: "Sorry, too busy!"

First Riot Post
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ChocoKelly

Senior Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
No, the answer is "we can't just buff an ADC that is melee because they're binary in their success/failure; either too strong or UP."

Fixing these characters, including Fiora, is something we're working on, but is longer-term than a numbers-fix.
Are you also working on Rengar and Nidalee? I heard something.


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A Master Shaco

Senior Member

04-23-2013

Fiora is not weak.
It's just that champions like Khazix and Zed are too strong.
Why pick Fiora when you can pick Khazix or Zed?
They both do alot of the same things right now, It's just clear to see who does it better.


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Saigo Getsuga

Senior Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage Night View Post
Have see what they been doing to assassins lately, I even wonder if that going to be possible at the rate they are going. Eves been gutted and turned itn a bruiser now.

Ahri and LeBlanc are bot hurting due to this meta, and talon is no where to be seen. Kinda puts a damper on this grand plan of theirs.
Well but Khazix and Zed are godly.


Imagine a assassin yi with RESETS.


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Robtard

Junior Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Basically some items, but also play patterns that tend to have more escape potential or upfront burst. It'd make them more "assassin-yi".
Fixed.


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Zalfier

Senior Member

04-23-2013

To be fair, she actually works fine as an ad mid, you just max Q first and play her like an ad caster. Plus after she hits 6 her dive potential is scary as hell.


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Sylvr

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Senior Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Basically some items, but also play patterns that tend to have more escape potential or upfront burst. It'd make them more "assassin-y".
Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose though? An ADC is all about dealing high amounts of item-based sustained damage to a single target.

Ranged ADCs rely on positioning for the brunt of their survival, and also to contribute to their skill cap. Melee ADCs need some other mechanic to fill that role. They need some way to play that they can improve on that allows them to survive a fight. They need some way to mitigate incoming damage and CC that takes mechanical skill.

My initial idea was some sort of real-time parrying system, or maybe some sort of directional-based damage/CC mitigation (you take less damage from the front, or some such), though I'm not sure something like that would be practical or even possible.


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PoorLepRecon

Senior Member

04-23-2013

Can you atleast buff her passive a bit?


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Mestergrog

Senior Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiziiziM View Post
That's funny cause Trynd isn't that bad, and he's a melee carry
Yes he's good, so let's compare Trynd to Jax, another successful champion who is practically a melee carry, even if he's labeled as a fighter/bruiser. What do they have in common? Survivability that actually works.

Jax:
Very high base health: 463 + 98/level. 561 at level 1, 2227 at level 18.
An escape on Leap Strike by jumping to wards/ally/enemy units.
2 seconds of dodge + 25% AoE damage reduction on Counter Strike.
Gains 25 / 35 / 45 (+ 30% bonus AD) armor and 25 / 35 / 45 (+ 20% AP) magic resist during the active effect of Grandmaster's Might.

Tryndamere:
Very high base health (at all levels, he's just 2 hp behind Jax)
Bloodlust can heal him for up to 300 health at max rank.
Mocking Shout reduces nearby enemy attack damage, weakening their ability to hurt him.
An escape on Spinning Slash that can go through walls (it's basically Flash with higher range).
5 seconds of death immunity.

Looking at the survivability/defense abilities of Master Yi and Fiora:
Yi:
Much lower base health: 444 + 86/level
1 second of untargetability during Alpha Strike.
A 5 second heal/defense steroid that can be stopped by CC that disrupts channeling, and renders Yi unable to move/attack.
An "escape" on Highlander that's only movement speed, and is vulnerable to stuns, snares, suppression, taunts, knockups/knockbacks, being blocked by units or terrain.

Fiora:
Low base health: 450 + 85/level
Passive health regen over time on her passive, which isn't useful outside of early game.
An "escape" on Lunge that only works if there are enemy units to dash to.
Riposte blocks 1 auto attack.
Movement speed boost on Burst of Speed (vulnerable to all the same things as Yi's Highlander).
1.25 seconds of untargetability during ult.

While untargetability is a strong defense, it's too short for these melee carry champions. Unlike assassins or nukers, a carry doesn't do their damage in a quick burst, but instead takes more time to do overall higher damage.
Instead, they should have more reliable, longer-lasting ways to survive in fights, because they need more time to deal their damage. Being in melee range, they'll need much better defense than a ranged carry.

So, either rework the squishy melee carries into burst assassins like Kha'Zix or Zed, or give them tankiness, defense steroids, etc. whatever makes them last longer in fights so they can actually do their job.


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Verxint

Senior Member

04-23-2013

Morello, what do you think about champions whose kits involve doing damage with autoattacks like a carry, while being able to stick to their target and survive enemies. The best examples are Jax, Irelia, and Riven. They all have some method of surviving a fight, but one that doesn't necessarily make them want to stack defenses. They also all have great sticking power and autoattack damage.

I've seen them called both Bruisers and Fighters, but to me they seem to be melee carries. Their kits, while having strong defense mechanisms, still scale better with offense. They don't want to be taking hits or disrupting enemies (though they can be incredibly disruptive by sheer force), they often want to chase down and kill target after target.

We all know Jax or Riven can kill your whole team in a fight if they aren't stopped. These seem functionally superior to trying to make a glass cannon melee, which honestly I don't see how it could be done without BKB or something similar. For these champions, while they have damage to carry, it's their ability to survive and chase, on top of having strong free damage in the form of autoattacks, that gives them carry potential.

It really just seems to me that Jax, Irelia, Riven, Nocturne, and Syvanna, and some others have a lot more carry in them than anything else. They often get called Bruiser, Assassin, or Fighter, depending on which one, but they seem to be a mix of all three. Their kits don't seem fully designed for just brawling in the front line taking hits, or for quickly killing a target and escaping.

They seem designed for, as Phreak says in the Jax spotlight "Killing your opponents one at a time while surviving attacks from surrounding enemies". This makes sense to call a "Fighter", but what makes that different from a melee carry? A glass cannon meele just won't work without a BKB-like item to prevent it getting blown up. Fighters seem to be the closest practical thing we have in the game at the moment.

Why not just call them melee carries like they are? There's no rulebook that says you need to build glass cannon to be a carry.


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Sex King Shaco

Senior Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Master Shaco View Post
Fiora is not weak.
It's just that champions like Khazix and Zed are too strong.
Why pick Fiora when you can pick Khazix or Zed?
They both do alot of the same things right now, It's just clear to see who does it better.
Hmm while Khazix and Zed are in a great spot right now I think the thing fiora lacks is being able to farm from a safe distance while also having a solid escape. Both Zed and Kha have on demand escapes while fioras can be a bit more tricky.

Other then that she still can be a great mid pick in certain times. Top seems to be hit or miss for me personally.