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Community: "Buff Fiora" / Riot: "Sorry, too busy!"

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Monstrata

Junior Member

04-23-2013

Making her Q reset her auto-attack timer would be a minor but decent buff.

So would converting 10% of the damage done by an Auto-Attack that Fiora Parry's into bonus damage and mana refund. (IE Fiora blocks a Nasus Q for 100 damage, she deals the 60 Damage from Level 1 Parry + 10 damage from Nasus Q, + receives 10 mana back).


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Jack the Homo

Junior Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
Morello:
Basically some items, but also play patterns that tend to have more escape potential or upfront burst. It'd make them more "assassin-y".

I feel like an escape would be much better, changing Riposte to a backwards dash kind of like Caitlyn's net, used as a disengage. Otherwise they might as well just be assassins, it'd help them get into a fight against a ranged opponent, and back off, trading quickly rather than sticking to the target.


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0xiDIzE

Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
Morello:
No, the answer is "we can't just buff an ADC that is melee because they're binary in their success/failure; either too strong or UP."

Fixing these characters, including Fiora, is something we're working on, but is longer-term than a numbers-fix.

You should go to Fiora's designer and kick them in the nuts, then. It's not like she's an old champion, you knew about these issues before she was released.

IMO just delete Fiora and refund anyone that unlocked her. Worst champion in the League. Insta-dodge if someone on your team picks her, insta-hue if someone on the enemy team does.


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danwilson

Senior Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
Stackingwards:
I was thinking a lategame melee-only item that gives you magic immunity for a duration. The duration is based on how much attackspeed and crit you have so it wont be abused by bruisers. I think it will allow melee carries to truely be the "hypercarries" of league of legends


Bahahaha.... "An item that makes everybody else's abilities useless (but not mine), because we need to shut down APCs, duration based on attack speed and crit..."

So an item that turns a glass cannon melee ADC into a bruiser for a few seconds... Tryndamere cheese for all! Just what APCs need in a game where practically all melee champs have a closer and CC..

Because Fiora's invulnerability during her R isn't enough...


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Slightlyoff

Member

04-23-2013

Here's how you fix melee ad carries. Stat overhauls. Melee ad carries need to have higher base, lower scaling. Bruisers in general need slightly lower base on their abilities and a tiny bit more scaling on their abilities to make pure tank with a brutalizer not the optimal build.

Let's look at the champs that would be considered melee ad carries and how they far top lane. Because let's face it, that's the only lane they can be viable in. bot lane they'd just get denied super hard since you nerfed the **** out of healing supports and buffed cc supports as a consequence. and mid lane they'd be destroyed by bursty ap casters with range.

Fiora, Master yi, tryndamere, gangplank.

These are the most prominent examples I would pick. Let's examine each of their kits.
1 damaging ability 2 utility abilities that do low or no damage, and an ultimate. 3 of them use mana, 3 of them have direct healing abilities.

What do all of them suffer from? Weak damage from abilities that cause them to lose trades and ultimately be denied farm. What do carries need more than anything to be relevant in a game? Farm.

Gangplank is arguably the strongest of these 4 in lane. Why? parrrley is a ranged ability that he can harass and cs with, extending his lane time and using less consumables. This is the sole reason he can lane better than the other three. Why is it that 4 champions with inherent sustain have so much trouble in lane?

Well fiora's ability to sustain is her passive which is horrible. Just give her a quarter of that to her base stats and give her a damaging passive and you've just improved her lane because I guarantee that passive isn't up for 1/4 the laning phase unless her lane opponent is actually weak against her (pretty rare).

Master yi is to mana prohibiting. Because of the infamous AP master yi, his mana costs are too high to use in lane. Against any resourceless champion yi is at a MASSIVE disadvantage because he can't win trades over a long period of time, i would argue he can't in even a short exchange against most laners. He can't spam his meditate and q to stay relevant for more than a few waves. Meanwhile the 8 potion riven is doing double his q's damage with her abilities, stunning yi, and shielding herself and outsustaining because the trades are doubly in her favor despite them having heals and she has shorter cooldowns and no mana.

Tryndamere has great sustain, if he can auto attack. But auto attacking is all he's got because his q damage is miserably low and after that he has to rely on auto attacking to out-dps his lane opponent. The problem is he doesn't have the superior base stats to make up for this. His base stats and scaling are fairly average. So he loses trades and gets denied farm.

I wanted to briefly talk about poppy. While she does have 2 damaging abilities, she has very high mana costs relative to her base mana pool and loses out on trades due to low mana. And then she gets denied farm. Because the loss of health from pots as a result of getting more mana regen means she has less overall sustain and has to dominate trades to go even.

The point of talking about poppy is to mainly point out that many of these potential melee ad carries have some severely prohibiting costs to being a solo laner. If it's not low damage, it's mana costs that make them lose the trade war and ultimately farm.

Until resourceless champions like renekton, riven, or rumble have to pay for that resourcless status with lower damage/utility champs like poppy, mastery yi, and gangplank who get bled dry of mana will never be a safe lane pick.


And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Effectiveness of early defensive items vs. early offensive items.

Champions like renekton and riven that rely on their base strength to dominate their lanes can go full defense early on, and not suffer at all for it. In fact they typically only need 1 or 2 damaging items and then build full tank and are set due to goo base damage and scaling. The fact that riven can go cloth armor start and still out damage a master yi in trades who starts with damage, is a problem. There aren't enough low cost damage items to compete with the low cost defensive items and how effective they are early on. This means that champions that don't benefit as much from going defensive in top lane are at a disadvantage. I.e. every single melee ad carry.


Solutions?

It's really hard to come up with a quick fix. Because a quick fix isn't adequate to fix a problem that has been in the making for quite some time as you, Riot, continually churned out stronger and stronger champions for the sake of sales instead of balanced design.

My solution would be to overhaul lane sustain, the strength of early defense vs. early offense, and some base stat changes.

A simple rebalancing of mana costs to allow these 4 champs to cast more frequently would be a change that would see more play time.

But that's probably not enough, 4 of the 5 mentioned champs have ad buffs that could use a scaling buff instead of a flat value much like what zed has. Maybe not yi who has a mechanic based on doubling that value, but poppy, gp, and fiora have vastly underwhelming damage from these abilities that sets them behind their counter parts.

I would also propose making them have stronger base stats if itemization and spell changes aren't your flavor. Higher base stats with weaker scaling would make their laning phase easier and make them more relevant going into the mid game.


Anyway. that's my 20 cents.


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Mestergrog

Senior Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
ItsFunToLose:
The reason you can't balance melee ADC's is because you keep making champions like elise and zac, that can build tanky, and still do tons of damage because of %max health damage. If fiora has to spend 7,000 gold on offensive stats just to do as much damage as an elise who bought sorcs and haunting guise, there's going to be a discrepancy between how much damage they deal in a fight before they die simply because elise lives longer.


Even so, such champions will never have the damage output of a real carry because they're limited by their cooldowns. Strong autoattacks with high attack speed will deal more damage than strong abilities with max cooldown reduction, because the cap on cooldown reduction is more restrictive than the cap on max attack speed. This is why bruisers/fighters that rely on strong, high-damage autoattacks are the only ones capable of matching the damage output of a carry, like Jax or Irelia.
But you're right, they perform better than those actually labeled melee carries because they can survive in fights (Jax through his ult, Irelia through her free damage, so that she can just build tanky + attack speed and still have very high DPS)


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FrontlinerDelta

Senior Member

04-23-2013

Quote:
Morello:
Basically some items, but also play patterns that tend to have more escape potential or upfront burst. It'd make them more "assassin-y".


Just out of curiosity Morello, if you have time to respond, how do you feel about their damage?

Should a melee carry deal more damage than a ranged carry? Where does Riot see melee carries filling a role? Replacing the ranged AD for potentially more damage but with higher risk?

Or do you see melee carries as a secondary "damage source" if you have a high utility teamcomp?

Or are they meant to be sustained assassins who dive into the enemy team to kill the enemy carry?

I know what I prefer personally but I'm curious as to what Riot would like the melee carries to do. I love playing them and think it's a lot of fun and quite a challenge. Against lower skill levels, it can work quite nicely and you become a juggernaut of death.

But I would be willing to give that up so that I can play Fiora, one of my favorite champions next to Lux and Syndra, and not feel like I'm gimping myself or my team by picking someone with no utility and who has a hard time dealing damage reliably in a fight without getting insta-gibbed.


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Highborne

Recruiter

04-23-2013

Quote:
Morello:
Basically some items, but also play patterns that tend to have more escape potential or upfront burst. It'd make them more "assassin-y".


Why not just change AD carries into either bruisers, tanks or assassins full time? Make a decision to push them in a direction as their primary role and then balance around that assumption (ie Yi goes into assassin, Fiora assassin, Tryndamere bruiser, Poppy tank, etc.)

Each have a role in the game and work well in teams.

Leave the AD Carry as a ranged function only, that way you can remove a "role"


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2Ahris1Chalice

Junior Member

04-23-2013

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2013/04/on-fixing-melee-ad-carries-and-shyvana.html#more
Lololoool and they just posted this


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NightcoreDJ

Senior Member

04-23-2013

I am a huge Fiora player and i've followed alot of Fiora threads. I was a huge supporter for buffs but you have to accept reality.

- Morello just said the direction is more assassin-like. They are deviating away from the melee-carry aspect and moving them into a different subset of characters. That already worries me as I especially liked Fiora for her all damage all in style. I also believe that a duelist/fencer, a blademaster, and a barbarian would not allow themselves to become assassins.

- We must understand that ANY NEW ITEM can and will be abused to a much greater effect by other champions then what Fiora, Yi, or Tryndamere can.

- Pretty much anything you do other than QoL tweaks will change the change for other champions drastically as well.

I've been wanting Fiora buffs for a long time and while it seems it will not come soon, I'd rather play her as the wildcard she is at the moment and wait rather than having rushed fixes/buffs that will not work for the game.