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Are tanks too tanky?

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SleveX

Junior Member

11-09-2010

thats right, but pure stats SHOULD matter, as a champ is (by riots intent it seems) considered a brand before hes got masteries runes or items.
yes, tryn gets +dmg. 40 on 8 stacks on lvl 5 nothing earlygame there.....
alistar 2 ccs making it imo impossible to attack the turrent on his lane. so, i think the skills do (dps depended) equal themselves


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Galgus

Senior Member

11-09-2010

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Tyrn's skills help him dps more than Alistar's help him, but I wouldn't say either skill set is blatantly superior to the other.


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Eliroo

Senior Member

11-09-2010

The guy who wrote this doesn't know how to farm then. I played ashe the last two games and one game I was under leveled for the longest because our top lane was being stupid and I had to go from top to bottom and encountered amumu trying to steal our blue buff on the way. Ontop of that we had someone DC every 5 seconds. But I still carried the game against an amumu and a shen who were pretty well farmed and the shen was even fed. But I ripped through them. Actually I ripped through their whole team. Tanks aren't to tanky. This guy is just a cry baby lol.


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axesandspears

Senior Member

11-09-2010

Quote:
Micro102:
Your coming up with and complaining about a solution to a problem in which there are multiple solutions too. I believe it's called a strawman.

Tanks need less damage. I suggested it before and I'll suggest it again, make tank items reduce stats as well as increase them.


The problem with making tanks do low damage is that if tanks can't kill anyone 1on1, they might not be strong enough to contribute in group fights. This would mean that a team with dps carries could wipe out all the dps on another team, and the tank is left useless. I agree that many tanks such as morde and garen need damage nerfs. But the solution is to make tank damage gear-dependent, and lower tank base damage. Not to make the tanks do less maximum damage, because that could make some tanks, especially the ones with taunt, useless.
Btw, tank dps usually kills dps because dps are squishy. Taking a tank item or a hybrid dps/tank item can balance it out. Also, all tanks have at least 1 weakness.

I play tank Malphite, and he is really hard to kill when he gets geared and can slam for a lot when he armor stacks, but there are many dps items that can counter Malphite and make him useless. You won't kill Malphite with physical dps once he's heavily armored, you can't get enough physical dps, but items like malady, bloodrazer, and wits end crush through my magic resist and allow even physical dps to kill me. Conversely, tanks like Morde can be beaten by building a mix of health, mr, physical damage, and lifesteal. Cho'gath is extremely vulnerable to high physical and/or magic dps with high lifesteal and/or spell vamp.

Crit-carry builds can crush most dps, but a smart tank can build to counter that. Many tanks have to change their build based on enemy team comp, dps should be able to do the same.
That being said there are a few changes that need to be addressed, but nerfing the damage of all tanks is not the answer.


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Mok

Senior Member

11-09-2010

Quote:
Eliroo:
The guy who wrote this doesn't know how to farm then. I played ashe the last two games and one game I was under leveled for the longest because our top lane was being stupid and I had to go from top to bottom and encountered amumu trying to steal our blue buff on the way. On top of that we had someone DC every 5 seconds. But I still carried the game against an amumu and a shen who were pretty well farmed and the shen was even fed. But I ripped through them. Actually I ripped through their whole team. Tanks aren't to tanky. This guy is just a cry baby lol.


the OP isn't saying that he can't farm for items.
He's saying that the tanks as of lately are getting a big boost out of said items.
the boost is making most other items rendered useless.
like Madred doing 4% magic damage can be reduced if a tank has heavy MR and moderate armor.
or Randuin's being excessively useful vs AD champions stacking armor penetration runes/items.

and you being Ashe doesn't make you special. Ashe was designed to kite and lead tanks on. if in fact Ashe is the perfect champ to down tanks. Tanks are 100% susceptible to snare/stuns. it makes them less effective at doing their jobs. Being Ashe doesn't give you bragging rights at your skill because Ashe was created for the soul purpose of playing that role.

Amumu's bandage isn't hard to dodge.
Shen has shadow dash on 10 sec cd.

Ashe has frozen arrow based on your atk speed. costs 8 mana per attack.
increases snare from 15/20/25/30/35% for 2 seconds.

to a tank 35% reduced movement speed with out the use of summoner spells or whether it be on CD is like hell.

So far you've just manage to explain how you pwned tanks with a champion designed to CC tanks asides from other classes by kiting them. It doesn't matter if you've killed them because they will never touch you.

However. the OP is also not realizing that being Tristana he can as easily do the same tactic just by getting Frozen Hammer. it's not an instant tank killer but it's definatly an item worth it's price. no tanks can get away from Snare.


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Eliroo

Senior Member

11-09-2010

Quote:
blubbernaught:
the OP isn't saying that he can't farm for items.
He's saying that the tanks as of lately are getting a big boost out of said items.
the boost is making most other items rendered useless.
like Madred doing 4% magic damage can be reduced if a tank has heavy MR and moderate armor.
or Randuin's being excessively useful vs AD champions stacking armor penetration runes/items.

and you being Ashe doesn't make you special. Ashe was designed to kite and lead tanks on. if in fact Ashe is the perfect champ to down tanks. Tanks are 100% susceptible to snare/stuns. it makes them less effective at doing their jobs. Being Ashe doesn't give you bragging rights at your skill because Ashe was created for the soul purpose of playing that role.

Amumu's bandage isn't hard to dodge.
Shen has shadow dash on 10 sec cd.

Ashe has frozen arrow based on your atk speed. costs 8 mana per attack.
increases snare from 15/20/25/30/35% for 2 seconds.

to a tank 35% reduced movement speed with out the use of summoner spells or whether it be on CD is like hell.

So far you've just manage to explain how you pwned tanks with a champion designed to CC tanks asides from other classes by kiting them. It doesn't matter if you've killed them because they will never touch you.

However. the OP is also not realizing that being Tristana he can as easily do the same tactic just by getting Frozen Hammer. it's not an instant tank killer but it's definatly an item worth it's price. no tanks can get away from Snare.


I described how Tanks are not to tanky. The whole concept of a tank is to simply stay alive and even then they are easily killable. Even with the benefit from items it still isn't enough to classify them as super tanks. Without Madreds they are all still very killable. The damage done to them scales with the damage put onto them perfectly. If Anything some tanks aren't tanky enough until very late game. On top of all that you shouldn't be focusing a tank which makes this post even more a null and moot rant. If I wanted to spend the whole team fight hitting cho gath and wondering why he hasn't died i can and I can lose the team fight. But as a carry I'd rather ignore cho gath and hit them where it will hurt the most.


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Mok

Senior Member

11-09-2010

Quote:
Eliroo:
I described how Tanks are not to tanky. The whole concept of a tank is to simply stay alive and even then they are easily killable. Even with the benefit from items it still isn't enough to classify them as super tanks. Without Madreds they are all still very killable. The damage done to them scales with the damage put onto them perfectly. If Anything some tanks aren't tanky enough until very late game. On top of all that you shouldn't be focusing a tank which makes this post even more a null and moot rant. If I wanted to spend the whole team fight hitting cho gath and wondering why he hasn't died i can and I can lose the team fight. But as a carry I'd rather ignore cho gath and hit them where it will hurt the most.


It's not necessarily a moot point rant as to the fact that it's plausible that certain items do render some ineffective.
Granted the idea of attacking a tank first is a bad idea, but the general idea i believe is at the point of where the fight is just between the tank and perhaps 3 members of the opposing team. where the tank was unscathed even after suffering 10seconds worth of punishment from heavily equiped AD/AP champs,

I mean i play Alistar i know i've survived way crazier things. so i can relate to the idea that tanks can be Tanky. if built correctly.

as for Chogath some people just can't click around his big head. i hate him but i also love him. so i always make sure i send him to my tower like the season one CG.


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Galgus

Senior Member

11-09-2010

Alistar can survive what about no-one else can because of his ultimate, but he has heavy downsides that compensate- like no spam shield ability.


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Mok

Senior Member

11-09-2010

yeah. what i wouldn't give for a spam shield sometimes.
but that wouldn't make him fun.

he's probably the only tank i know that i can play freely and walk into any odds and still get 3 assists from. been playing him since beta.

other than that Gragas is my second best tank his W skill is like the best heal/defense. works well if he has locket 2% heal + locket heal. lets you stay alive long enough to help your team get the ace.


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Galgus

Senior Member

11-09-2010

Part of what makes Alistar fun is that he lacks a spam shield and has to commit when using his shield.