The Problems with Lore

First Riot Post
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Samuel L Jaxx

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levik View Post

I feel that Riot is moving away from this type of lore and I am grateful for this decision. This type of lore is not very serious and it does not move the plot of Valoran in any way. I understand that a lot of people enjoy this type of lore so I am no way downplaying the importance of this type, but Riot is trying to be more serious with their lore. It does not mean that they have to abandon this type of lore, but this section is mostly taken care of by fan fiction.


WHICH IS WHY I DONT GIVE A CRUD: BECAUSE IT'S FAN WANK.

Fan wank.



ALL THAT ASIDE:


Consider.................fighting games.

You have


1. Character orign
2. Reason for joining the tournament
3. single player campaign with
A) Victory
B) Defeat

Everyone gets their own resolution BUT! Most of the time you will be playing against friends in matches, enjoying beating each other up.

Does it actually matter if you ever finish, or even start campaign mode?


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Gixia

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levik View Post
I agree, books are not fast enough to keep up with how fast League of Legends evolves. I am talking about the release of new champions until Riot begins releasing the new lore. It is my hope that it will be released as much, if not more, as champion releases.
I have to disagree with this, at least with how things are currently progressing. It's true that new champions come out very quickly, certainly faster than a series of books could, however, there's also over a hundred champions. No matter which type of fictional medium you use, whether it be literature, animation, film, games, etc., you are not going to fit that many characters into one story.

So, yes, books wouldn't come out fast enough to be able to feature the very newest and most recent champions, but they also wouldn't need to, because there's already a huge pool of characters to draw from to tell a story. Throw in the fact that any story is likely to feature non-champion characters as well (because not every single person in the world of Valoran is a League champion), and ideally you'd end up wanting to stick to just a handful of champions at any one time and stories that involve them. So books would be fine then.

That said, if the lore was to pick up and start moving at the same pace as champion releases then maybe that'd be too fast for books but... Even then I doubt it. There is, of course, the matter that lore would actually have to be sped up for that to be an issue, since, as established, it's moving at a rather glacial pace at the moment. But then, even if the pace of lore did increase, again, there's just so many champions, so many plot threads, you're not going to be able to cover that all at once, and there'll always be room for expansion in novel form if Riot chose to do so.


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AmbushIntheDark

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
I have to disagree with this, at least with how things are currently progressing. It's true that new champions come out very quickly, certainly faster than a series of books could, however, there's also over a hundred champions. No matter which type of fictional medium you use, whether it be literature, animation, film, games, etc., you are not going to fit that many characters into one story.

So, yes, books wouldn't come out fast enough to be able to feature the very newest and most recent champions, but they also wouldn't need to, because there's already a huge pool of characters to draw from to tell a story. Throw in the fact that any story is likely to feature non-champion characters as well (because not every single person in the world of Valoran is a League champion), and ideally you'd end up wanting to stick to just a handful of champions at any one time and stories that involve them. So books would be fine then.

That said, if the lore was to pick up and start moving at the same pace as champion releases then maybe that'd be too fast for books but... Even then I doubt it. There is, of course, the matter that lore would actually have to be sped up for that to be an issue, since, as established, it's moving at a rather glacial pace at the moment. But then, even if the pace of lore did increase, again, there's just so many champions, so many plot threads, you're not going to be able to cover that all at once, and there'll always be room for expansion in novel form if Riot chose to do so.
One chapter every 2-3 weeks.Post them on the site. Problem solved.


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Kuwalda

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levik View Post
Karthus’ new character is rather complex and your last line here is a major understatement; Karthus is probably more powerful now than he was before. Karthus awoke the Shadow Isles (forward movement in lore and reason for the Shadow Isles’ increase in activity all of a sudden) and is the embodiment of death itself: “Something awoke in the Shadow Isles that day, when Karthus did something no other creature had ever done: he willingly gave his life over to undeath. When he reentered the world, Karthus had become the embodiment of his own obsession.” This clearly shows that he is more than “come chump Lich.”
I can't see any complexity here. It's like a champion being obsessed with the color red all his life and eventually deciding to paint himself red every morning.
But that champion wouldn't be "red", it's just a mask.
And Karthus is actually "undead", as well as actively (or passively?) defying death in the game.

power =/= complexity


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Levik

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixia View Post
I have to disagree with this, at least with how things are currently progressing. It's true that new champions come out very quickly, certainly faster than a series of books could, however, there's also over a hundred champions. No matter which type of fictional medium you use, whether it be literature, animation, film, games, etc., you are not going to fit that many characters into one story.

So, yes, books wouldn't come out fast enough to be able to feature the very newest and most recent champions, but they also wouldn't need to, because there's already a huge pool of characters to draw from to tell a story. Throw in the fact that any story is likely to feature non-champion characters as well (because not every single person in the world of Valoran is a League champion), and ideally you'd end up wanting to stick to just a handful of champions at any one time and stories that involve them. So books would be fine then.

That said, if the lore was to pick up and start moving at the same pace as champion releases then maybe that'd be too fast for books but... Even then I doubt it. There is, of course, the matter that lore would actually have to be sped up for that to be an issue, since, as established, it's moving at a rather glacial pace at the moment. But then, even if the pace of lore did increase, again, there's just so many champions, so many plot threads, you're not going to be able to cover that all at once, and there'll always be room for expansion in novel form if Riot chose to do so.
I would say that not every single champion needs to be referenced in every book, but since the lore of League is changing more often than other collection of lore (I would say this at least), it will be hard to juggle the fast changing lore that Riot puts out and the slow changing lore of the novels. Most in-universe novels do not use main characters so that they do not run into lore conflicts down the line (for example: Bungie made Halo: Reach so it did not conflict with 343's story for John-117).

If the novels focused on non-champions, maybe mid to high ranking summoners should be the focus, I would be okay with that; I agree with you there. Another thing is that the novels could introduce future plot points in the way that the Forerunner Chronicles introduced the Didact for Halo 4.

Sorry for the Halo references, Halo was just the first thing on my mind. I have no intention of continuing the discussion about Halo, they were just examples for my points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel L Jaxx View Post
WHICH IS WHY I DONT GIVE A CRUD: BECAUSE IT'S FAN WANK.

Fan wank
...

Consider.................fighting games.
...
Everyone gets their own resolution BUT! Most of the time you will be playing against friends in matches, enjoying beating each other up.

Does it actually matter if you ever finish, or even start campaign mode?
I don’t really see your point. Would you mind rephrasing it or telling me how it relates to the quote you pulled from my post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmbushIntheDark View Post
One chapter every 2-3 weeks.Post them on the site. Problem solved.
This might actually be interesting. I would be willing to give it a shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwalda View Post
I can't see any complexity here. It's like a champion being obsessed with the color red all his life and eventually deciding to paint himself red every morning.
But that champion wouldn't be "red", it's just a mask.
And Karthus is actually "undead", as well as actively (or passively?) defying death in the game.

power =/= complexity
I did not mean to state that power was directly related to complexity so I apologize if it seemed that way. I mentioned power because the person I was replying to (I cannot remember who they were) was saying how Karthus was not less powerful and I do not agree with that point. However, I do believe that Karthus is more complex because we have more insight into his past and current role in the world. Karthus awoke the Shadow Isles! What isn’t complex about that? Karthus is the first person ever to fully embrace death and I feel that is being downplayed by many people. He was not a psychopath because he showed great interest and passion in death and he did not paint himself “red” every morning, he became the complete embodiment of red.
Being undead means that you are dead, but you are reanimated by a supernatural force. I did enjoy the passive reference, nice one.


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Cerubois

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Eredale View Post
Kitae, how do I become an awesome and experienced writer? I love playing LoL I write, but still lacking in the awesome and experienced parts. What do?
I'm curious too, partly because the only position open on the Riot Career website is for one Senior Creative Designer.

I consider myself at least partly awesome, having the most popular fanfiction (by far) for the game, and I'm even a professional by definition when it comes to writing. But the requirements for Senior Creative Designer are still beyond my expertise. I've been patiently waiting for something entry-level to show up, but it hasn't. Is the website just not being updated anymore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levik View Post
I agree, books are not fast enough to keep up with how fast League of Legends evolves.
I've nearly finished a book in the time it took between now and when the JoJ was cancelled. And that was only writing for about half an hour per day or less.
I imagine someone faster and more experienced would be able to keep up fairly well. Heck, I think even I could if I made it a full-time job.


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Gixia

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levik View Post
I would say that not every single champion needs to be referenced in every book, but since the lore of League is changing more often than other collection of lore (I would say this at least), it will be hard to juggle the fast changing lore (What?) that Riot puts out and the slow changing lore of the novels. Most in-universe novels do not use main characters so that they do not run into lore conflicts down the line (for example: Bungie made Halo: Reach so it did not conflict with 343's story for John-117).
Except, again, the entire issue is that the lore of League isn't fast changing. It is, in fact, moving incredibly slowly. Once again, let's just look to Freljord as an example. Despite all the big hullabaloo being made right now, Freljord's plot has not actually moved at all since the JoJ first started. Despite us learning new information about Lissandra, nobody has actually done anything in the story. Same thing with the Shadow Isles event a while back. Nothing actually happened. At this point, it would virtually be impossible for a novel to not be faster, simply because the only way you could be any slower would be to go backwards... Oh wait, that's exactly what they're doing everytime they retcon something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Levik View Post
I did not mean to state that power was directly related to complexity so I apologize if it seemed that way. I mentioned power because the person I was replying to (I cannot remember who they were) was saying how Karthus was not less powerful and I do not agree with that point. However, I do believe that Karthus is more complex because we have more insight into his past and current role in the world. Karthus awoke the Shadow Isles! What isn’t complex about that? Karthus is the first person ever to fully embrace death and I feel that is being downplayed by many people. He was not a psychopath because he showed great interest and passion in death and he did not paint himself “red” every morning, he became the complete embodiment of red.
Being undead means that you are dead, but you are reanimated by a supernatural force. I did enjoy the passive reference, nice one.
No, he didn't. You're misreading his lore/taking a figure of speech too literally. First off, saying 'something awoke' is not the same as saying 'the shadow isles themselves awoke'. Saying 'something awoke within ______' is a figure of speech, used to convey something (usually a person) coming to terms with a new sense of purpose that they feel inside of them. In this case, the implication is that that 'something' that awoke within the Shadow Isles was Karthus himself, 'awakening' in his new form as a lich with his new purpose of bringing his dark requiem to the world (i.e. killing everybody, because reasons?).

And really, that's not very complex at all. It's told in a complicated way, but Karthus himself is painted in fairly simplistic terms. He's been obsessed with death his whole life, went to the shadow isles because he wanted to become undead, and now wants everyone else to die for... no real adequately explained reason. There, that's it, that's the entirety of his being. It's pretty simple.


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Son of the Stone

Senior Member

04-08-2013

I'm finding the trend in lore here in League of Legends to be all too parallel to another game franchise I enjoy: Games Workshop's Warhammer 40,000.

I used to feel like stuff was getting done in Valoran. I tensely awaited the release of each Journal of Justice to see how the situation in Kalamanda was escalating. Now? "Oh, what's that? Malzahar is creating a cult to bring the Void to Runeterra? The Shadow Isles are raising an undead army? An ice witch is rising out of divided Freljord? Swain might be preparing Noxus to break the truce?
Zed is training a clan of shadow ninja? Viktor is working on his 'glorious evolution' of humanity?
Oh, that's cool, I guess."

All these threats, all this supposed tension is meaningless because Riot's writers never capitalize on it. New villains and dark plots are sprouting like weeds (or Zyra) across Valoran and not a single one of them is ever actually carried out. I don't know if Riot is afraid of alienating people with the possibility of characters dying in such an event, or if they're just going to set them off all at once (why?), but I stopped taking champions like Syndra and Elise seriously a long time ago. Can we just see one of these actually come to fruition, please?

I wish they would do something like the Irelia/Noxus rematch again. What happens happens and Riot's creative team are not held responsible if people don't like how it turns out in the lore.


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IS149c9d0730e8b88ab7fc5

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitae View Post
Big moves take time. I am sure you guys have heard of the halo movie, the mass effect movie, and the wow movie, they are all still in development. We don't plan on taking that long, but it takes time.

Right now a lot of Freljord related lore is coming out, similar to shadow isles. With that plus journals I feel comfortable saying at we are increasing out lore output for you guys, e are not where I want to be, but it is a start.
Difference is the movies will be huge flops if they change their characters so drastically from the games. If Thrall behaved like Garrosh would the fanbase be happy? What about if Wrex was changed to be a small petite asari dancer?

The shadow isles lore? Oh you mean that thing you guys started, gutted Karthas' and Mordekaiser's lore for then stopped doing anything on it because it was only a marketing ploy for Elise hype.


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Xulsigae

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of the Stone View Post
I'm finding the trend in lore here in League of Legends to be all too parallel to another game franchise I enjoy: Games Workshop's Warhammer 40,000.

I used to feel like stuff was getting done in Valoran. I tensely awaited the release of each Journal of Justice to see how the situation in Kalamanda was escalating. Now? "Oh, what's that? Malzahar is creating a cult to bring the Void to Runeterra? The Shadow Isles are raising an undead army? An ice witch is rising out of divided Freljord? Swain might be preparing Noxus to break the truce?
Zed is training a clan of shadow ninja? Viktor is working on his 'glorious evolution' of humanity?
Oh, that's cool, I guess."

All these threats, all this supposed tension is meaningless because Riot's writers never capitalize on it. New villains and dark plots are sprouting like weeds (or Zyra) across Valoran and not a single one of them is ever actually carried out. I don't know if Riot is afraid of alienating people with the possibility of characters dying in such an event, or if they're just going to set them off all at once (why?), but I stopped taking champions like Syndra and Elise seriously a long time ago. Can we just see one of these actually come to fruition, please?

I wish they would do something like the Irelia/Noxus rematch again. What happens happens and Riot's creative team are not held responsible if people don't like how it turns out in the lore.
WH40K at least has some movement in the form of books and new characters being created and destroyed. Obviously no one can win and the Emperor can't die because players have invested in armies and such, but it feels (to me) like things move a bit. The lore doesn't always match up, but the galaxy and time line is so huge and varied and narrators are unreliable, it makes sense most of the time.

League needs an overarching arc, a main storyline or conflict to pull off WH40K style lore progression though. It doesn't have it currently (unless Freljord becomes really big). The League is more like a hub of stories, with disjointed characters each with a story.