I just realized why Trundle needed a lore change.

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JoshiaHerox

Member

04-08-2013

I'm not a Trundle main, nor is he my favorite character but, I do like him and enjoy playing as him. I really liked old Trundle because of the fact that he was an underdog and a trickster, and I think we could all relate to being bullied. The old Trundle however (in my humble opinion) didn't really fit in the league of legends setting. He didn't really have a place in the world. he abandoned his tribe to let them slowly rot to death, and joined the league to hit people over the head with his club so he could forget the excruciating pain he was constantly in. He didn't really have an important role in Runeterra.

This new Trundle; however, while still having some of the same character traits ties himself more closely to the world. He has a real reason to join the League. To represent his people the frost trolls in the upcoming Freljord civil war, and I can't wait to see him develop as a character. I think this is the right move by Riot from both a design and story standpoint. His kit thematically fits in the Ice theme having slows and terrain displacement. Also his model shows that he is still kind of the runt, seeing as he's not that big in comparison to other champions and he gets bigger through the use of his ult. Showing that he craves power/respect and that he will become stronger because of it. All in all I like new Trundle but I recognized how important old trundle was to me as a character so I immediately bought him when the remake was announced so that I can preserve his old character with the free skin I disagree that this new lore is flat or shallow. I think it shows potential for a truly likable character.

@Runaan: Thanks for the post, I see the newer bios tend to be longer than the old ones which is good, any chance Trynd, Nunu, or Ashe will be getting updates as well?

Anyways probably going to be downvoted, but people are entitled to their opinions and I proudly state that I am all for Trundle the Troll King.


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DONGCART

Senior Member

04-08-2013

I appreciate the response, but my two cents addresses a bigger issue than just Trundle, as big as my problem with this is.

I've seen posts about this so I'm glad I'm not the only one concerned, but this VU may set a precedence for the retconning of "undesirables" in League's future. Replacing everything about a character because you can't figure out what to do with them is an unconvincing, slapdash way of dealing with the challenges that are presented. It will create holes in the plots of other characters, which means they'll have to be changed (see: Singed and Warwick), which will warrant even more changes. It'll be a big mess that may change a lot of Champions as we know them, like some twisted form of the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.


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Liath

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding an Sich View Post
The majority of almost all the grievencies you have made are on a subjective appeal to how you interpreted the story, not how Riot and LoL as a whole uses him though.

In the end all this is at nick picking because of a desire not to progress.
Talking at the people who don't like the change? Subjective interpretation of the story thats fairly widely shared? Riot and LoL needs Ice Trolls? Progress down the path of more words with complicated fjords and skurwysyn?


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Birdy51

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding an Sich View Post
The majority of almost all the grievencies you have made are on a subjective appeal to how you interpreted the story, not how Riot and LoL as a whole uses him though.

In the end all this is at nick picking because of a desire not to progress.
Nay I say. It is a desire to not progress in the wrong direction. Debates like these are important.


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Rivini

Senior Member

04-08-2013

It's great to finally see your comprehensive reasoning behind the Trundle change, but what I don't understand is why this couldn't have been an entirely new troll champion instead and have Trundle be left alone. It could've been a great opportunity to show how varied the creatures of Runeterra are in different regions. Regarding his lore "problem," it could've been dealt with at a later time when a better opportunity/idea arose.

I mean, there are a lot of humans from different regions in LoL and even a handful of yordles (new yordle champion where?! :| ). There's no reason why there can't be more than one troll that can be summoned, along with all the other species currently in LoL.

I just don't like the idea of throwing away compelling stories like Trundle's old lore.


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Federok

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DONGCART View Post
I appreciate the response, but my two cents addresses a bigger issue than just Trundle, as big as my problem with this is.

I've seen posts about this so I'm glad I'm not the only one concerned, but this VU may set a precedence for the retconning of "undesirables" in League's future. Replacing everything about a character because you can't figure out what to do with them is an unconvincing, slapdash way of dealing with the challenges that are presented. It will create holes in the plots of other characters, which means they'll have to be changed (see: Singed and Warwick), which will warrant even more changes. It'll be a big mess that may change a lot of Champions as we know them, like some twisted form of the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.
In my opinion the precedent was Karma....Trundle is just the next step


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Crownface

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding an Sich View Post
The majority of almost all the grievencies you have made are on a subjective appeal to how you interpreted the story, not how Riot and LoL as a whole uses him though.

In the end all this is at nick picking because of a desire not to progress.
So there's an objective way to view Trundle's character and lore?

I don't see how this has anything to do with progress either, it's just people who don't want a character to be deleted and rewritten with little to no communication. That's not really progress, that's an unnecessary retcon for reasons that still haven't been explained very well.

I haven't seen anyone really upset about Sejuani's visual rework, nor did I see anyone upset about Annie, Ashe, Katarina, Tryndamere, Twisted Fate, or others' improved visuals. That's progress, and it would be really hard to be against those visual updates, because they're pretty good, and they don't detract from the character's theme at all.

If Annie started throwing snowballs, Ashe shot fire arrows, Katarina throws bouncing cards, and Twisted Fate got his hands on some magical daggers in their default skins, people would be upset. That's pretty much what they did to Trundle.


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DONGCART

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Federok View Post
In my opinion the precedent was Karma....Trundle is just the next step
Her lore wasn't changed though. What I'm getting at is let's say that Urgot's background got changed so that he was connected to Bilgewater. That knocks Garen and Jarvan off his list of connections, and Jarvan's lore has to be changed now, as his near-death experience at the hands of Urgot won't act as a catalyst for him to really grow as a character.

Before anybody says that something else could sub in for that, please realize I'm only using Jarvan/Urgot as an example.

A single lore change than in turn results in a chain reaction of retcons hardly seems worth it. If Trundle's lore is changed, then a precedence will be set that it's ok to retcon characters and allow other characters to be changed rapidly as a result, leading to a TON of champs being completely different than the champs we loved.


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PirateDude

Junior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post
Hey guys,

Why a new identity?

You guys are right: Trundle’s old story was compelling. It was a strong arc with a cathartic ending that finished the story of Trundle’s involvement with his tribe. The thing is, that story was effectively finished. Any evolution from the point at which Trundle decides to doom his tribe felt arbitrary when we discussed it internally.

We explored evolving Trundle into a frost troll as a solution to the problem of his story feeling complete. For example, we tried stories like “ice of Freljord slowed the disease” or “the Ice Witch cured him,” but they felt like Band-Aid solutions to get from Story A to Story B. This would not have been meaningful character development; it would have been an excuse to move the story forward in an inorganic way. A fresh start allowed us to create a strong, compelling, and open-ended story for Trundle.

Trundle’s old story was essentially finished, but new Trundle’s story is only just beginning. It’s essentially Act 1… where will the rest of the Troll King’s story take us?
I don't mean to be a naysayer, but as an English major and a secondary English teacher I can tell you that this view of story telling is very limited and somewhat flawed in its narrow scope of what is possible or what is strong storytelling.

It is a fallacy to believe that just because a story arc is finished that the character's story is over. This is not true in any of our lives and in the lives of great literary characters this is not the case either.

If you want to hire me part time to do lore consulting, let me know. There's a lot I feel hiring someone with an English degree background could add. If not me, then someone, because much of the lore needs real depth, and depth often comes through arcs ending and new paths beginning. To say something is "finished" is to admit that your imagination isn't strong enough.

I think, looking at this post, the main motivation for the rework is a combination of the desire to "open up" his lore with the sudden surge of Freljord (sp?) related lore. The idea of connecting the characters does add depth to the stories of the characters but a new character would just as easily fit this role. Adding to Trundle's lore wouldn't be a "band-aid" any more than getting fired is a "band-aid" leading your story into the next phase of it's journey.


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Chibodee Crocket

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post
Hey guys,

We’ve been reading to your posts over the past few days and we wanted to jump in to say that we hear you. Trundle’s Visual Upgrade (VU) is a big change from what he was, so I want to share some of the story around how and why Trundle, the Troll King came to be. This might be a bit of a huge brain-dump… sorry if I get a little long-winded. Bear with me!

Trundle’s VU began as a piece of concept art for Trundle as a frost troll. Looking at and thinking about this path for Trundle got everyone super excited. Everything about it made sense. The idea of frost and ice fit the theming of his kit. The visuals were strong and compelling. It was a huge opportunity to strengthen Trundle as a character. We met, talked through the pros and cons, and felt that Frost Troll Trundle would be the best version of Trundle. We knew some would still prefer old Trundle, and we made the Traditional Trundle skin for those players.

On the creative team, we faced a challenging question: if Trundle was going to be a frost troll, how could we make him into the “coolest” frost troll he could be? How could we incorporate the key elements of Trundle’s personality into this new narrative? What we came to was an approach that preserved what we felt were key elements of Trundle’s personality, but with a fresh new identity that built him into the story of the Freljord and provided huge opportunities for storytelling in the future.
I'm sorry what part of the new Trundle has key elements or personality of the old Trundle? Out side of being a Troll with a club there is nothing. It's like you didn't even read out posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post

Why a new identity?

You guys are right: Trundle’s old story was compelling. It was a strong arc with a cathartic ending that finished the story of Trundle’s involvement with his tribe. The thing is, that story was effectively finished. Any evolution from the point at which Trundle decides to doom his tribe felt arbitrary when we discussed it internally.

We explored evolving Trundle into a frost troll as a solution to the problem of his story feeling complete. For example, we tried stories like “ice of Freljord slowed the disease” or “the Ice Witch cured him,” but they felt like Band-Aid solutions to get from Story A to Story B. This would not have been meaningful character development; it would have been an excuse to move the story forward in an inorganic way. A fresh start allowed us to create a strong, compelling, and open-ended story for Trundle.

Trundle’s old story was essentially finished, but new Trundle’s story is only just beginning. It’s essentially Act 1… where will the rest of the Troll King’s story take us?

With all of that in mind, we took a great deal of care in preserving elements of Trundle’s old story in his new. These themes didn’t take the exact same form, but here’s a run-down of our thought process.
The new lore is generic and poorly writen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post

Story Possibilities

So, where do we begin with Trundle, the Troll King? Where can we take him from here?
One key factor is that Trundle is still the underdog of the Freljord. Ashe, Sejuani and Lissandra seem to be the main power players here, but Trundle is the unexpected fourth force in the grand scheme of things. There’s a lot ahead of him, but can the Troll King rise to the challenge and reclaim the Freljord in the name of his kin?

We’ve put him in a very interesting conflict with the Ice Witch. They’ve forged an alliance of convenience—each needs the other to advance their plans, but where will that end? Lissandra herself is a master manipulator whose cleverness and guile will go toe-to-toe with the Troll King. Will the alliance have unforeseen consequences? Who will turn on the other first?

I hinted at this before, but Trundle’s character flaw—the fact that his newfound power may go to his head—opens up a lot of possibilities for us, too. He began his journey because he wanted a greater future for the trolls of Freljord, but will his hunger for greatness ever put them at risk? Power is an unwieldy, tricky thing, and Trundle is a made leader, not a born one. What challenges has he NOT considered?
So you rewrote his lore because it was closed off and finished, mean while Zac's lore is complete on release. Seems like the Lore team doesn't know what it is doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post

“But I loved the old Trundle!”

We hear you. By no means do we think that Trundle’s old story and personality were a detriment to our game. We know that Trundle was beloved to some, which is why the Traditional Trundle skin exists. This preserves the fantasy that Trundle once held. If you want to be Trundle, the Plague Troll, that character still exists for you in all his glory, complete with classic voiceover and updated character art and visual effects.
Great except the Traditional skin doesn't address the problem of people who bought Trundle skins and hate the new Trundle, those skins are the Troll King now, not the Trundle they bought it for and certainly not what they paid for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post
In Conclusion

We’ve taken a lot of steps to make Trundle the greatest frost troll he can be while still preserving the key elements of who he once was. This opens up a lot of opportunities for stories and serves a greater goal of building out our world into a more cohesive, unified whole. We’ve only just begun to talk about the coming war in the Freljord, and now Trundle can play an important part in that conflict. We hope the evolving story of the Freljord and Trundle’s new role there really give you something to dig into for League of Legends lore.

Thanks everyone, and keep on trollin’.

-Runaan and the Riot Creative Team
Thanks for the spins post, it addressed nothing we have been talking about nor did it talk about what will be happening, it was a regurgitation of IronStylus' posts.