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[Feedback] Akali iterations

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Hexten

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Update 3: Wow, real derp Riot. HP pots are now limited to 5 on the PBE. Nerfs are based on this start and now you going to take it away? Revert Akali nerfs please.

Update 2: A week ago on Voyboy's stream, he was aware of Akali's nerfs and his response to it. Arguably's NA best top laner, if high elo/pro players don't find her a problem, then what does Riot based their balance on? The recurring theme of recent patches is to nerf outstanding champion performances at tournament level. Just goes show that Riot does nerf based on GD QQ.

Voyboy vid as he states his opinion on the nerfs at the start and end of the video, respectively 4:23-4:37 and 27:07-27:35.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJL__8M5XGI

Updated:- Just with the LCS today, FeralPony was able to answer a few questions relating to the 9HP pots start. 9HP pots start is the reason why Akali has seen much more play in S3 than in S2. If nerfing the 9Hp pot start is be done, then Akali shouldn't be touched basically. Here is a few links:-

FeralPony talking about the issue:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMZ_UrlH58o#t=6h04m40s

And if you want to be apart of the discussion:-
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bt0aj/we_are_limiting_the_amount_of_healthpotions_you/

I've already made a thread on this in general discussion, but one of the replies pointed out it would be better off in the PBE forums, seeing that the changes are only on the PBE, for now.

[The point of this thread is pre-6 laning only as this is what the change mainly affects.]

So I have already made a thread at RoG about this:-
http://www.reignofgaming.net/forums/...be-akali-nerfs

After play testing Akali on the PBE, the the Q change definitely puts a nail in the coffin for having the absolutely weakest laning phase. Currently on live, Akali already has very little to no laning power. She can't harass well, cannot make any trades to her favour and cannot last hit well due to being bullied away from creeps by any decent opponent.

Look into the thread for more details.

The Q change affected her laning power the most, especially pre-6, which is not Akali's problem. You hit the wrong place and utterly destroyed Akali's pre-6 laning.

However, the Shadow Dance nerfs are spot on. It affects first timers rather than real Akali mains. You have to be much more aware how much stacks you have, you can't just use your ult whenever and expect to have 3 stacks up again. So this change works but doesn't destroy the feel of the skill as your still Akali being able to dash 3 times. You just need to put more thought into when to use dash.

The Q change needs to be looked at, and if its possible, keep iterating her Q on PBE so we can actually test what needs to be done about it. Q is her core laning mechanic. I don't see how right now on live it is a problem. It's her ult. That's what seperates Akali from being useless pre-6 to being a monster afterwards. You need to smooth out the power spike.

Plus another fun side note: I don't want jungle Akali to be ruined! :P

Would be appreciated if any red from the live balance team provide their insights into these upcoming changes, and consider the real effect of them? For a TDLR;

Akali
Mark of the Assassin ( Q ) intial damage lowered to 35/55/75/95/115 from 45/70/95/120/145.
Mark of the Assassin ( Q ) consumed mark damage AP ratio increased to .55 from .4
Shadow Dance (R) charge stacks cooldown increased at eariler ranks to 35/25/15 from 25/20/15.

And more recently with the release of Lissandra PBE deploy
Mark of the Assassin ( Q ) consumed mark damage AP ratio decreased to .5 from .55

I'm not talking about when she hits 6. The effect of the Q change affected her pre-6 laning the most, which I think is not the intention of these nerfs, due to the fact she cannot trade well pre-6. Last hitting is much harder now. Instead of blindly downvoting, I would encourage people to post insight discussions, like some people have in this thread.

It would really help to actually get to the bottom on what makes Akali problematic.

Edit: Just lowered the AP ratio on second denotation. That was a big blow that was not needed. I found it borderline ok if these changes went in if the AP ratio was 0.55, but decreasing it by a mere 0.05 increased the breakeven from 200AP to 300AP. Like as if 200AP wasn't high enough already. That's a massive 100AP more. Totally not worth it.

Extensions to the OP:-

Quote:

[Again, context 1-5 laning.] Just food for thought, not be taken literally.

The point of this thread, is that when Riot reduce the inital base damage on her Q, which is to make Q harass less rewarding because its safe, they haven't compensated the Q base damage reduction elsewhere, so if you get up taking a risk to proc the mark, the initial+proc total damage will be less than currently on live. The AP ratio increase is 'not' the compensation as in early laning you wouldn't have bought enough high-end AP items to make the breakeven. (Its now 300AP, up from 200AP.)

This is big deal at top lane, when trading against your opponent, and trying to make each trade favour towards you. Riot has taken the some of the safety of Q harass, and added it to the proc, but the reward is less now. This is my main problem, and it is as simple as putting that loss to her E.

So all-in-all, her total damage before and after should remain the same, its just that they have injected much more risk in trying to get that damage off, through having to proc the mark instead of Q harrassing. Having her E have that increased base damage would mean in order to achieve the same damage output, she would have to always be forceed to use E, which consumes energy, something Akali doesn't really have to manage.

It puts more thought if you've rather autoattack to proc the mark or use E for higher trading power, but at the expense of using energy.


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Pennlocke

Senior Member

04-05-2013

The point of these nerfs doesn't make any sense to what the stance Riot took with her earlier last year. What I mean is the +20hp and +3armor buffs to "carve a niche for her in top lane"

She won't be able to trade as well with these low damage Qs 1-5, especially against top lane bullies such as Riven and Rumble. As it stands now on the current PBE, trying to trade would turn her into a very high risk - low reward champ.

I would rather the flexibility changes to her passives be reverted to having a unique rune page again, rather than dealing with the annoyance of trying to last hit with such a low damage ability. Either that or nerf the 9pot/2ward start, as that seems to be the crux of the problem.

Please revert the changes to her passives as the "flexibility" buff seems to have doomed her early game laning. Plus I want the glowing hands back.


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Hexten

Senior Member

04-05-2013

Further expansion on denotation's AP ratio iteration. Its in a different perspective to the original post; adjusting Akali's risk/reward ratio. Bear with the analysis, but thats the whole point of testing changes in the PBE. No effort = not testing thoroughly. Though this is from the prespective of mid/late game teamfights.

With the latest change on Akali's Q, then no, its not worth it anymore. It wouldn't be so bad if they kept the denotation's AP ratio at 0.55 instead of reducing it to 0.5. Just goes to show that even a small number change, like 0.05, can drastically reduce its benefits.

With 0.55AP, the break even was 200AP. At 0.5AP, the break even is now 300AP.

That's a massive increase of 100AP just to reach the break even. Totally not worth it, as the amount you start to get benefits from the increased AP ratio are barely worth the risk.

The risk/reward ratio was pretty much prefect if they left it at 0.55AP. I wouldn't mind a riskier early laning if it was kept like this.

But if they increase the risk, they better provide the reward. Currently, with the reduced AP ratio, its not there.

With 400AP and the 0.5AP ratio, Q is going to only deal 10 bonus damage. Splat. Trade 30 base damage from early laning just for 10 damage late? Late game doesn't favour Akali, period.

Whereas with 400AP with 0.55AP, Q is going to deal 30 bonus damage. Just a 0.05 increase, and tripled the reward, so the amount loss has been made up as a bonus at this point, making this trade for a riskier laning phase for this amount of reward much more appealing for Akali players going full glass cannon.

With the games I've played as Akali so far in PBE for the two days with the 0.55Ap ratio, the lower base damage just acts as a 'handicap' until I reach the 200AP break point.

15 mins is, on average, a pretty fast time to acquire Gunblade.
25, a needlessly large rod, and going onto a blasting wand. With flat AP quits, armor yellows, mr blues, and flat AD reds, 21/9/0 masteries, AP around 25mins, if I'm doing fine (120+ CS, 1-2 kills) is around 220ish AP.

So basically with the Q change, I'm gimped for 25mins on average, until I reach the break even. Going Sorcerer's Shoes, Gunblade, Needlessly Large Rod and Blasting ward is very high risk. Absolutely no health, armor/mr items for a squishy melee assassin that has to be in melee range to do deal damage to target, and only form of disengage is countered by pink wards/oracles. Glass cannon Akali is really a good definition of high risk. But is the reward there? That is the question.

This is not helped by the fact that the now current iteration of Q has a denotation AP ratio of 0.5, increasing the break even to 300AP. Taking the most likely game-to-game situation above, it will delay getting to the break even quite longer, atleast around 30 mins. The fact the break even is so high, means the amount of bonus reward you get out of the higher AP ratio is mediocre at this point in the game. (30mins + is late game.)

I actually quite like the redistribution of the risk/reward ratio being tweaked on Q. For real Akali mains that play her as high risk/reward, its really exciting. Reduce laning safety, but increased reward for coordinated fights.

I never built Akali with bruiser **** items. So I'm fine with the base damage nerf to stop Akali building bruiser items and turns her back into the high risk/high reward assassin she is suppose to be. Just the way I like it.

But again, its timing of when the reward will kick in, and currently, its far too long for that to happen and make any difference in an average game scenario.

TDLR; What to take away from this:-
Mark of the Assassin denotation AP ratio was quite fine at 0.55. Even at this point, it still took quite a while before the reward kicked into place. With it down to 0.5, it takes far too long for the reward to rack up. Change back the ratio to 0.55 and let's see it from there.


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MrSmileyy

Senior Member

04-05-2013

I agree with all you said pretty much, I also wish every single assassin wouldn't get nerfed to appease the GD board...

At this point, I feel the only reason she doesnt fall to fizz status (viable champ who cant survive laning therefore is never used) is that her q is energy and ranged. Even so, the hefty nerf to its initial effects last hitting a lot, shes in a danger zone here now.


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XXIV

Member

04-05-2013

Save your breath. Riot doesn't listen if you don't have an aware mob.

The QQ Gods demand tribute and have chosen Akali next.


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Hexten

Senior Member

04-05-2013

I don't mind if they put more risk into Akali, she's really safe right now due to all the power creeping and S3 changes.

But if they want to put back the risk she had in S1, then they have to provide the reward along with it as well.


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Hexten

Senior Member

04-07-2013

With 400AP the bonus damage is 10. Would have to play another match to see how fast I can get AP.

Trying to calculate average amount of AP Akali can get before 25 mins.


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Mechhhhh

Junior Member

04-07-2013

Quote:
Hexten:
I don't mind if they put more risk into Akali, she's really safe right now due to all the power creeping and S3 changes.

But if they want to put back the risk she had in S1, then they have to provide the reward along with it as well.


This.


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Pennlocke

Senior Member

04-07-2013

Quote:
Hexten:
I don't mind if they put more risk into Akali, she's really safe right now due to all the power creeping and S3 changes.

But if they want to put back the risk she had in S1, then they have to provide the reward along with it as well.


I echo this sentiment. Pretty much what I said about her risk-reward balance being skewed unfavorably in the current PBE.


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Sayath

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Let's see what season 3 changed:
- Season 3 patch / changed itemization: 9 pots + 2 wards / fort + ward + pots
- Discipline of Force / Might: rune requirements removed
- Shroud nerf: Clearer visibility of the edges, longer reveal during attacks

From my viewpoint 9 pots / 2 wards trivialized the early game. It became a simple whack-a-mole with no risk for anyone associated with it. Boots + 3 Pots required skill in execution since you needed to actually dodge skillshots and enemy trades where meaningful. At the moment that is non-existent. Nobody can go through all of those pots, you will survive till level four / five at least without ganks (which can be prevented by placing the wards correctly, you got two of those!).

That's why my prime requirement is: Kill the superfluous sustain in lane introduced with these game starts!

As FeralPony stated they are going to reduce the amount of potions to approximately five. What does that change?
For once, the real, mana-based mages will become more powerful again. Their early game will be better than Akali's and it will have meaning. Currently, they cannot effectively kill her with trades, soon they will be able to. Either you outplay the mage player through skillful skillshot dodging or you will lose your lane as you should.

The skillcap in playing Akali is in this early game. It was removed by 9p / 2w and is going to be reintroduced by limiting the amount of potions!

Regarding the innate changes:
You changed these in order to make it easier to pick up Akali. Before it required a dedicated runepage, now that is no longer the case. By removing this barrier you also introduced power. The increase is not as high as most make it out to be, but it's still there. Mostly this increased her popularity, making her into a very common pick. It basically only made the underlying issue apparent (which was introduced with early game itemization changes).

Your reaction:
If you consider the itemization changes permanent, the nerfs of shroud and mark of the assassin / shadow dance are an obvious conclusion.
You however make an already stale early gameplay only worse. These changes will make her rely on the 9p / 2w start forever.
Riot, your goal was to introduce early game itemization choices! You do not want one champion to be forced into an exact item combination every single game. You want choices to have meaning. Well, 9p / 2w and these nerfs remove that.

In a balanced world it should be possible for me to decide on an optimal start according to my opponent and preferences .
If I want to start boots, then that should be an option. However, in high competitive play (I'm Diamond on EUW, Sayath) this is not the case.
There's only two starts: Fort pot and the gang or 9p / 2w. Every other starting item choice has been effectively killed off. Starting boots + 3p can only be done when you are vastly superior in skill compared to your opponent. Basically a diamond player going up against a gold one.

tl;dr:
Stop meddling with champions that became problematic caused by your itemization changes and start reintroducing risk-reward in the early game.
Let that settle in, then think about adjusting Akali. In my opinion, further changes (beyond the shroud nerf) won't be necessary.

Therefore, the less potions we will be allowed to carry the better for Akali. 3 / 4 / 5 potions, choose one. Maybe I'll be able to start boots again and face some real AP mids again where I am actually required to dodge skillshots.


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