Which Team Will Win?

Team A 37 90.24%
Team B 4 9.76%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

Which team will win!?!?!??!

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Fancy Wolf

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
A team that is going to beat a Kassadin comp isn't going to have 2 glass AP champions in it. Nor is it going to put all of its physical DPS on 2 champions that need to be in melee range to kill against that much CC.

And at the end of the day, your premise is flawed. Kassadin is NOT auto win regardless of all conditions. Kassadin improves the chances of his team winning when all other conditions are equal. There is a difference. To prove your point, you would need to have the first team pick bad, not the other way around.
But in an equal setting kassadin drastically increases the chances of his team winning no?

comparative to any other champ being picked kassadins % of win boost he brings to the team is undeniably higher than anyone elses, it may not be auto win, but its damn near it


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Nyx87

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Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
A team that is going to beat a Kassadin comp isn't going to have 2 glass AP champions in it. Nor is it going to put all of its physical DPS on 2 champions that need to be in melee range to kill against that much CC.

And at the end of the day, your premise is flawed. Kassadin is NOT auto win regardless of all conditions. Kassadin improves the chances of his team winning when all other conditions are equal. There is a difference. To prove your point, you would need to have the first team pick bad, not the other way around.
This is interesting. All i did was theory craft. Given the comp he was going for, I selected a comp with medium initiation, strong poke, decent burst, good jungle control and a decently safe botlane. I think when played out, the game would be closer than you think.

Also, I think you should give it a shot, since you have different ideas on how to handle Kass.


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inFe eD

Senior Member

04-03-2013

You also picked a team with zero aoe outside of the one champion who is forced to go bot lane, and which gets handily destroyed by anti-melee cc to boot.

I know Fancy is itching to prove whatever point he's trying to prove, but this isn't the way to go about it.


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Torkable

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Dumb thread is dumb, sry fancy


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Nyx87

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Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by inFe eD View Post
I know Fancy is itching to prove whatever point he's trying to prove, but this isn't the way to go about it.
For me, it seems that Fancy is stating that 2nd pick must always ban Kassadin and in effect is only getting 4 bans. Therefore Kassadin is permbanned but Second pick only has 4 bans.

Is that an issue? Yes or no? explain.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

04-03-2013

I am pretty sure this discussion already happened the last time we had a "ban kass from DD tourneys" thread.


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AlphaFerric

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx87 View Post
For me, it seems that Fancy is stating that 2nd pick must always ban Kassadin and in effect is only getting 4 bans. Therefore Kassadin is permbanned but Second pick only has 4 bans.

Is that an issue? Yes or no? explain.
So from last tournament I remember one ban phase was:

Team 1: Eve, Lulu, Kayle, Mumu, Urgot
Team 2: Kass, KZ, Wu, Nid, Teemo

So Jayce and Elise get through, and Elise gets fp, with Zyra Jayce as 2 and 3.

My main issue with that it became more important to ban Teemo/Eve/Kayle than Jayce or Elise. I would consider both stronger than the aforementioned three, but are all in the same tier of sauron's list, and brings up the bigger point of who is strong with what high tiers. The irony though is that even with the supposed 2 OP picks, team one won.

The best part is game 2 of that series, FTV gets Jayce Zyra Urgot while PECS gets Karma
and arguably Nunu for tier one picks (I say arguably because he had to either go against Jayce or Urgot for a lost lane, but ended up against Garen instead).

My point? Yeah, tier one champs are strong, but some are stronger than others and it appears people kind of blindly ban them on what they think their opponents are strong with. Wonder why infeed didn't grab Jayce in game 1? Because he knows you are weaker with him than you are with Elise, and PECS is at the very least equally competent with Elise. I'll avoid talking about game two because that was a lane loss more than anything.

So, say team 2 doesn't ban out Kass, that's a given first pick for the other team at the cost of (at best) another target ban. If kass was not in play, that either opens up another slot for a target ban OR, team two lets 2 OP's through.

So, say that's the case and Teemo and Wu are left open (insert troll ban xerath+ahri). We now have the following available from tier 1:

Karma Elise, Jayce, Teemo, Wu, Zyra, Lee Sin, Vi

Other champs involved: Talon, J4, Syndra, Xin, Leona

Karma/Elise/Zyra/Teemo all fill similar roles but to different means
Vi, Lee, J4, Wu, Xin same idea
Jayce provides a unique kit
Talon provides a unique kit
Syndra provides a unique kit
Leona Provides a unique kit

So, say you ignore trying to pick counters right off the bat and just put a team together with the comp of Burst AD, Bruiser, AP, Misc. x2

Pick teams prioritizing tier 1 and avoiding redundancies
Team 1: Jayce, Zyra, Vi, Talon, Syndra
Team 2: Elise, Wu, Teemo, Lee, Leona

Assign tier one champs a value of 1 and non tier 1's as 0 and sum
Team 1=3
Team 2=4 <-supposedly more OP

My big beef with all this ****? PECS has won plenty of series 2 in row (beating the 2 OP picks for team 2). Its a **** argument as there is direct proof to the contrary of how strong second picks are. A much better argument is allowing more OP's into a match makes the game more volatile and reduces the value of subtly strong plays (see game 2 of last weeks finals where FTV clearly had the stronger lineup and lost due to a poor choice for bot, and a well played counter by infeed).

tl;dr: yes, but not for the reason everyone keeps saying.


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0shi

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Not knowing any of the background for this conversation, team A is way stronger on paper.
It won't even be close, to my thinking, and not just because of Kass: Their CC and AOE will murder team B's melee picks.


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Fancy Wolf

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0shi View Post
Not knowing any of the background for this conversation, team A is way stronger on paper.
It won't even be close, to my thinking, and not just because of Kass: Their CC and AOE will murder team B's melee picks.
The backround was, kassadin being permabanned, and then just giving 2nd pick only 4 bans. Nyx said it wasnt necessary and we did a ban/pick just like the tournament.

Team A, Was mine (first pick)
Team B was his (second pick)

Using the current tournament regulations we did picks and bans, which led to the team comps you see here, He also edited in garen for his 5th (after he put syndra) since I picked Vi/Brand/J4 who are all effective bots while still maintaining strong AoE/Initiation/Control Toplane.

Actually the picking and banning was so much more relaxed because I didnt have to take player skill or champ pool into account, It was free reign of highest level comp building and champ select.

Again this is all simple theory craft, but I would love to see this put into action in an exhibition match between two top teams


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MMKH

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Team A has more hard CC and of course Kassaderp.


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