Lissandra, the Ice Witch, Lore

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Eserine

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwalda View Post
You have returned!
I'm a fan.

I'm interested in Riot's next response, though if it is what I suspect it will be, I can already open the bottle of champagne to celebrate my victory and at the same time set up a cozy little corner to cry a little.
Better posters than I left this game in disgust long before they had to see Demacia's "deadliest assassin" trained sufficiently to overcome every mage in the League cowered in terror while desperately fleeing a large floating popsicle, but let's not enumerate the voluminous deficits of recent storytelling (or the immediate parallels the journals have to the final episodes of the season two HBO "Game of Thrones' TV series that aired near the time of composition, which one could "borrow from" easily without ever having read the books) and instead discuss Riot's player-response pattern since this seems to have captivated your attention.

The lore team presents a very predictable pattern of forum posts and silences modeled upon decisions that they have already made for the game which they are not open to changing. Everything under consideration is kept secret from the players, and players posting random speculation in the forums on a topic that happens to also be under consideration by the lore team will also not be weighed within consideration by the lore team. If the lore team has already put forth informal plans to implement something you are talking about they may "agree" with you publicly in the forum. If you dislike an aspect of their work they will ignore you or alternatively IronStylus will deliver an insincere apology.

As a good contrast consider the novel "Machine Man" by Max Barry, where in the final three acknowledgement pages the author details how he decided to write a serialized rough draft on his website incorporating site-visitor suggestions each day as he wrote a new single page:

"...I used many reader ideas. I wasn't sure that I should admit that in print, but my legal advice is that you can't copyright ideas, so thanks a lot suckers. Wait, you didn't just type that did you? Good. Because people would kill for your job you know.
Thank you to everyone who tossed me an idea. Even the ones I didn't use helped clarify the boundaries of my stories world. My favorite was from Meredith Course, who educated me about brain plasticity and free-roaming neurons. Carl's "Fiber Shield" is from an idea by Kragen Sitaker. Even the first edition cover was chosen with online help, particularly from Reddit: thanks to everyone who contributed their thoughts.
Thank you to Mike Taylor for allowing me to pilfer the heart and soul of his wonderful blog post, "A brief, yet helpful, lesson on elementary resource-locking strategy," which so perfectly depicts why programmers should not be allowed to mix with regular humans that I couldn't do better than ape it..."

and here it is still online: http://maxbarry.com/machineman/faq.html

This represents a diametric opposition to the function of the LoL forums where visitors are relegated to the limited role of adoring helot or encouragement odalisque, and as we see the work suffers massively as a consequence of the paranoia and elitism of this inadaptation.

Enjoy your champagne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel L Jaxx View Post
Dont you DARE MENTION VAMPIRE!


Hated Metaplot......


That aside, you CANT HAVE AN RPG without Lore.


You need Lore, so you have something to play in.

Now RIOT actually had polls as to whether people wanted champs to have Lore at all. Basically, they are pretty much focusing on (decide for yourself whether they succeeded/failed) creating a good action self styled "MOBA" game. Now of course, there are lore geeks but most people are focused just on actually playing the game.

Contrast with an RPG where Lore is the #1 important thing -aside from having a workable system (otherwise you might as well play Magical Tea Party because it's better than the Rules As Written)
I completely disagree with your idea that lore is somehow only important in limited contexts for a limited number of players. The human brain always wants to know WHO-WHAT-WHEN-WHERE-WHY (and we are able to remember things or mentally manipulate them in the abstract more easily when they are fitted to this format), and in a Moba platform this is just as important as an RPG (if not explicitly stated then as a potential story a player can create themselves, which doesn't wok well when discordant features are added). Why not give all items in the game a simple letter sequence to denote their title, calling Athene's Unholy Grail "acb" and remove all of the champion names and just call Fizz "#58"? The human mind always prefers lore, even inventing random WHO-WHAT-WHEN-WHERE-WHY sequences for things we cannot explain, such as primitive people explaining thunder as angry gods, or sleep paralysis patients seeing demons pressing on their chests, and all of these stories from various sources change our minds and subtly alter the way we perceive the world, so it is entirely appropriate to worry about their construction quality.

Even further than this, if you don't plan to add a narrative or metaplot to a game or work of art it will have one anyway because ideas and actions expressed in a fictional universe cannot be separated from their political connotations that players will read, no matter how willfully one may try to ignore such things.

I was informed yesterday via a fringe science newsletter that the author Iain Banks is dying of gallbladder cancer, and while probably most famous for writing The Wasp Factory he also once wrote a book about a gigantic popular game that determined an entire culture and power structure, which served unconsciously as a psychological reinforcement mechanism of the unjust cultural norms keeping certain groups in power.

What if in thirty years a politician in your country runs for the highest office who happens to look just like Jarvan does, against a chubby middle-aged female who is actually a better candidate? The story of historical figures like Ronald Reagan are no less idiotic. There are many ways that Lol's creative design and irresponsible composition may lead to real-world consequences, just as previous games or stories have consequentially altered international relation dynamics or shifted entire art movements or religions or science:

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/gee...-humanity/9013
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/bl...ogy-scientists
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...ted-scientists


and thus I will continue to bemoan the artless and tone-deaf recrudescence of bad and illogical videogame writing that cannot bear the weight of critical thinking or elevate the play-experience.

Grab a scone motherf**ker!


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Samuel L Jaxx

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Better posters than I left this game in disgust long before they had to see Demacia's "deadliest assassin" trained sufficiently to overcome every mage in the League cowered in terror while desperately fleeing a large floating popsicle, but let's not enumerate the voluminous deficits of recent storytelling (or the immediate parallels the journals have to the final episodes of the season two HBO "Game of Thrones' TV series that aired near the time of composition, which one could "borrow from" easily without ever having read the books) and instead discuss Riot's player-response pattern since this seems to have captivated your attention.

The lore team presents a very predictable pattern of forum posts and silences modeled upon decisions that they have already made for the game which they are not open to changing. Everything under consideration is kept secret from the players, and players posting random speculation in the forums on a topic that happens to also be under consideration by the lore team will also not be weighed within consideration by the lore team. If the lore team has already put forth informal plans to implement something you are talking about they may "agree" with you publicly in the forum. If you dislike an aspect of their work they will ignore you or alternatively IronStylus will deliver an insincere apology.

As a good contrast consider the novel "Machine Man" by Max Barry, where in the final three acknowledgement pages the author details how he decided to write a serialized rough draft on his website incorporating site-visitor suggestions each day as he wrote a new single page:

"...I used many reader ideas. I wasn't sure that I should admit that in print, but my legal advice is that you can't copyright ideas, so thanks a lot suckers. Wait, you didn't just type that did you? Good. Because people would kill for your job you know.
Thank you to everyone who tossed me an idea. Even the ones I didn't use helped clarify the boundaries of my stories world. My favorite was from Meredith Course, who educated me about brain plasticity and free-roaming neurons. Carl's "Fiber Shield" is from an idea by Kragen Sitaker. Even the first edition cover was chosen with online help, particularly from Reddit: thanks to everyone who contributed their thoughts.
Thank you to Mike Taylor for allowing me to pilfer the heart and soul of his wonderful blog post, "A brief, yet helpful, lesson on elementary resource-locking strategy," which so perfectly depicts why programmers should not be allowed to mix with regular humans that I couldn't do better than ape it..."

and here it is still online: http://maxbarry.com/machineman/faq.html

This represents a diametric opposition to the function of the LoL forums where visitors are relegated to the limited role of adoring helot or encouragement odalisque, and as we see the work suffers massively as a consequence of the paranoia and elitism of this inadaptation.

Enjoy your champagne.



I completely disagree with your idea that lore is somehow only important in limited contexts for a limited number of players. The human brain always wants to know WHO-WHAT-WHEN-WHERE-WHY (and we are able to remember things or mentally manipulate them in the abstract more easily when they are fitted to this format), and in a Moba platform this is just as important as an RPG (if not explicitly stated then as a potential story a player can create themselves, which doesn't wok well when discordant features are added). Why not give all items in the game a simple letter sequence to denote their title, calling Athene's Unholy Grail "acb" and remove all of the champion names and just call Fizz "#58"? The human mind always prefers lore, even inventing random WHO-WHAT-WHEN-WHERE-WHY sequences for things we cannot explain, such as primitive people explaining thunder as angry gods, or sleep paralysis patients seeing demons pressing on their chests, and all of these stories from various sources change our minds and subtly alter the way we perceive the world, so it is entirely appropriate to worry about their construction quality.

Even further than this, if you don't plan to add a narrative or metaplot to a game or work of art it will have one anyway because ideas and actions expressed in a fictional universe cannot be separated from their political connotations that players will read, no matter how willfully one may try to ignore such things.

I was informed yesterday via a fringe science newsletter that the author Iain Banks is dying of gallbladder cancer, and while probably most famous for writing The Wasp Factory he also once wrote a book about a gigantic popular game that determined an entire culture and power structure, which served unconsciously as a psychological reinforcement mechanism of the unjust cultural norms keeping certain groups in power.

What if in thirty years a politician in your country runs for the highest office who happens to look just like Jarvan does, against a chubby middle-aged female who is actually a better candidate? The story of historical figures like Ronald Reagan are no less idiotic. There are many ways that Lol's creative design and irresponsible composition may lead to real-world consequences, just as previous games or stories have consequentially altered international relation dynamics or shifted entire art movements or religions or science:

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/gee...-humanity/9013
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/bl...ogy-scientists
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...ted-scientists


and thus I will continue to bemoan the artless and tone-deaf recrudescence of bad and illogical videogame writing that cannot bear the weight of critical thinking or elevate the play-experience.

Grab a scone motherf**ker!
J4 for president?

Pffft.


I'd take a 3rd option and vote for Draven.


That aside, my point was that many (but not all of course) Lore is the minimally important part of the game. Not everyone even pays any attention to Lore if they play Magic The Gathering (certainly not "The Spike"), and more recently to a friend of mine who I play WoW with he said to me as I was explaining something to him "Wha-there's a story to these games?" (plural because he was also referring to the RTS) He's the type of guy that doesnt even read quest text, and I know more like them.

Basically, to meet average joe standards there is a certain minimal ammount you have to meet. If you are a Spike just looking to jack **** up, and chase shinies and gold you dont need much reason, or from the esport perspective it's all just the mechanical aspects of playing the game.

But as Gixia said in the original post you linked, there's currently no way to actually play "through" the story AND you dont really see it........unless you read the background of your champion or journals on the forum. MOST people dont even read the forums, and there are a fair number of people out there that are sold on a champ by how it looks and what it does (and may pay little if any attention to exactly who they are supposed to be).

I for one at least, am not looking for any moving plot arcs, resolutions or anything, just a little context to explain just WTF this character is "supposed to be" and beyond that I dont really look that deep into them because as Gixia said, the story is static. If it were a different type of game, I would feel differently about it.


Quote:
Even further than this, if you don't plan to add a narrative or metaplot to a game or work of art it will have one anyway because ideas and actions expressed in a fictional universe cannot be separated from their political connotations that players will read, no matter how willfully one may try to ignore such things.
Pac-Man didnt have Lore, but it sure as heck had "characters".

Feck if I know what that game was about.......


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Kuwalda

Senior Member

04-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Enjoy your champagne.
It seems I will.

Also thanks for referencing the book by Iain Banks, reading it as I speak/write.


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Eserine

Senior Member

04-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel L Jaxx View Post
J4 for president?

Pffft.


I'd take a 3rd option and vote for Draven.


That aside, my point was that many (but not all of course) Lore is the minimally important part of the game. Not everyone even pays any attention to Lore if they play Magic The Gathering (certainly not "The Spike"), and more recently to a friend of mine who I play WoW with he said to me as I was explaining something to him "Wha-there's a story to these games?" (plural because he was also referring to the RTS) He's the type of guy that doesnt even read quest text, and I know more like them.

Basically, to meet average joe standards there is a certain minimal ammount you have to meet. If you are a Spike just looking to jack **** up, and chase shinies and gold you dont need much reason, or from the esport perspective it's all just the mechanical aspects of playing the game.

But as Gixia said in the original post you linked, there's currently no way to actually play "through" the story AND you dont really see it........unless you read the background of your champion or journals on the forum. MOST people dont even read the forums, and there are a fair number of people out there that are sold on a champ by how it looks and what it does (and may pay little if any attention to exactly who they are supposed to be).

I for one at least, am not looking for any moving plot arcs, resolutions or anything, just a little context to explain just WTF this character is "supposed to be" and beyond that I dont really look that deep into them because as Gixia said, the story is static. If it were a different type of game, I would feel differently about it.




Pac-Man didnt have Lore, but it sure as heck had "characters".

Feck if I know what that game was about.......

Suggesting that the initial popularity of Pac-man proves that modern games do not need a complex or interesting plot is a bit like suggesting that the initial popularity of unscripted silent black and white films with audiences prove that modern movies do not need a complex or interesting plot, because people used to be satisfied simply with recordings of trains going by or a few flickering seconds of a garden party.

This overlooks of course the multiple attempts by artists beyond Threadless T-shirt designers to explain Pacman in a narrative format (here being some of the more memorable examples):

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/04d...-movie-trailer
http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/r...eviews-pac-man
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/39...n-in-real-life
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWL6j0SvqV0

the other games you specifically mention as examples of being "Spiked" (like Magic: The Gathering or WoW) have done a terrible job integrating their lore into the play-experience (much like modern LoL) by relegating the storytelling to a position of total insignificance to the player, which severely lessens player engagement and the entire popularity of a game over time when faced with superior competition. Your friend would probably be willing to spend more money or time promoting the games you've discussed if he became more involved with their gameworlds. Draftmagic.com as an example posts the diatribes of many professional or high-ranked MTG players who mention (with detailed justification) hating the execution and enforced obscurity of the MTG books (both now and years ago), or card flavor texts, or the creative direction of new card sets soon to be released almost every week as they play through the game, and this is because being introduced to LoL or Wow or MTG for the first time at a social engagement holds no more gravity (thanks to their designers) than being introduced for the first time to shuffleboard or badminton or Wii archery or bowling (all boring, simple, and repetitive games that make very little money and only serve to frame the interesting or non-interesting personalities or stakes of the people you choose play with, which for most players just means becoming severely inebriated or metabolically accelerated to compensate for the monotony).

Where Gixia essentially complained that the lore was being crafted like a Jenga set of a bunch of short inflexible segments piled on top of one another (boring, simple, alcoholism), I think intrinsic to his later comments was the idea that instead the lore could be expanded and refined - perhaps set stage-by-stage like a passionate romance (a very complex game indeed), beginning in flirtation and longing and ending inevitably in surrender, obsession and absolute commitment to the interdependence of the participants, even to the extent that the story and player begin to define one another's existence.

Realistically though, with our current staff of writers the players will be "lucky" even to see the most simple and low-hanging conceits for extended character development, like Lissandra ( to use this thread's original subject-focus as a basic example) attacking Zilean before he can resurrect Shurima and the legendary hero that once fought the white watchers who resides there, wounding the inventor and damaging his machine while being thrown back in time with her mind scrambled by temporal distortions to become "and..r..." and in a fugue of amnesia accelerate molecules with her magic instead of slowing them as she did before, to hop through bodies throughout Runterra's history as Brand until the modern day.

Truly original writing of a deeper complexity or sophistication will likely have to wait for mocking fans to make parody videos about LoL for humor sites many decades from the present, and at that time I can only hope not to be in one of the nursing homes where these writers in residence will be spewing forth some horrific daily community newsletter which my nurses will insist upon reading at my bedside as my clawed arthritic hands fail repeatedly to grip a bread knife sufficiently to pierce my own jugular vein.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwalda View Post
It seems I will.

Also thanks for referencing the book by Iain Banks, reading it as I speak/write.
Indeed, no problem.


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Kuwalda

Senior Member

04-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Indeed, no problem.
I also finally watched Ed Wood after your reference in an old post. While the basic principle is the same, I think what separates Wood from Riot's lore team is that his films were bad in an Ed Wood kind of way, whereas the new lore is simply bad everyday fantasy.


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Eserine

Senior Member

04-09-2013

I think the lore is bad "in an Ed Wood sort of way" in that it contains stolen material, it is carelessly composed with little insight or authorial consideration (by the approval of a terrible manager), it is massively overhyped by advertisement, and the creator(s) are oblivious to the deficits within their limited creative scope of ability, valuing loyalty and optimism over any desire to seriously examine or improve their techniques or production capabilities via any form of genuinely constructive criticism (including constructive self-criticism).

Also in the past I have compared Lol's lore under Kitae to the Pony Pals books by Jeanne Betancourt, in the canon's formidable inability to ever challenge the audience, and the shallow Venn-diagram style of incorporated elements thrown into each generic "coming of age" narrative with a editorial shoe-horn to appease targeted demographics.

Ponies + Kittens + Friendship = $

Ice Troll + Magic Weapon + Power Ascension = $? (or so the logic goes)


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

04-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
<snip>
Eserine, mind adding me on LoL?

I think I may be able to propose an outlet for this kind of stuff that wouldn't be so easily swept under the rug by Riot.


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attemptingtoporo

Junior Member

04-12-2013

i tell you man riot is trying to pull somwthing with Lissandra man her lore is all about changing things man with all of the orht lore changes man they are trying to pull something and it is going to be so cool man back me up on this one comeon


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Eserine

Senior Member

04-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Eserine, mind adding me on LoL?

I think I may be able to propose an outlet for this kind of stuff that wouldn't be so easily swept under the rug by Riot.
I can't add you on LoL because I uninstalled the client a long time ago. You have found my Twitter account and can private-message me through that if you would like (or just use this thread since almost no one reads through this forum), but keep in mind that I do not want League of Legends to exist anymore because of its bad influences upon society, I merely visit this site to tell people to move on to other things.

When the first awful character rewrites were released and it became clear that the players were going to be ignored and the writing team expansion was going to move forward with underqualified pulpists, illiterates, and sketch artists put into total control of the game's story I considered attempting to organize an entire parallel-lore effort from players while bankrolling a good animation studio to do a series of short Youtube videos of some of the most dramatic scenes of the lore before Kitae came, complete with professional dramatic scoring and advertising on popular secondary Lol sites (like scientist Warwick's transformation in a lab with Singed while shellshocked Karma hallucinates Soraka's intervention and sacrifice on the battlefield, or given the new development of Trundle and Ashe now being the same character, Ashe's wedding to Tryndamere in united Freljord, with minimal dialogue to appeal to multiple continents of fans) as a direct attack on the new trash. But the main effect of such efforts and expense would be greater player engagement (or new players becoming involved) with a game that should rightfully be left to die in the discarded memories of a better international gaming culture. I do not want to pad Runan or Raven or Skribbles' paycheck with bonus income when their incompetence deserves the exact opposite.

On top of this 1. Any and all profit earned from a popular system of parallel lore ("paralore") or satire upon the bad present lore ("satilore") could be claimed in court as belonging to Riot in use of their intellectual property 2. Any new content developed by players for characters would actually harm the likelihood of the inception of those ideas into the game because Riot is similarly afraid of infringement claims upon their work, as they plan to challenge any significant profitable enterprise inspired by their IP (because they grew out of Blizzard once through Dota and do not ever want to be likewise surpassed by a rebel faction of their own players as they once were themselves working to surpass and iterate upon the previous hot game) 3. Paralore or Satilore efforts without the time and angel-investor cash of a startup or established company often comes across like a commander trying to perform a military campaign with a troop of girl scouts (for example, the small group of players who tried to create their own 'citystate faction wars' when Riot and the lore team refused to implement such features, ending with an inconvenient, nearly invisible, and ugly low-power participant list). 4. If all such problems could be overcome one would still be better off in most foreseeable respects making a completely new game and partnering with some programmers to sell the concept or demo to a large studio or developing an indie title for Steam.

If you still want to try I will not attempt to argue against your efforts, there are enough angry players in this field of concern to host a weekly call-in podcast called "LoL lore is awful, let's watch it putrefy together like a puss-leeking racoon flattened on the side of a street embankment", but remember that in doing so you will be overlooking libraries and e-libraries full of interesting books, films, and music that will go much further to inspire you and make you happy than assuming the bitter mantle of lore overlords of the forsaken wastelands of a maggoty carcass gathering flies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kig1056 View Post
i tell you man riot is trying to pull somwthing with Lissandra man her lore is all about changing things man with all of the orht lore changes man they are trying to pull something and it is going to be so cool man back me up on this one comeon
I'm going to go make pancakes now with some friends and talk about this and this and a man sawing his arms off at a Home Depot. Best of luck with the Icewitch prospecting...


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

04-13-2013

Hey Eserine, can you do me a favor? I want your opinion on, well, my opinion of Udyr's new lore and the retconning and rewriting that is happening. I understand if you don't have the time, but I want to know if my arguments do make a lick of sense. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...3333328&page=4

I did post it on GD as well, but I won`t ask you to shuffle through that. I`m that merciful to say the least.