Lissandra, the Ice Witch, Lore

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Morec0

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwalda View Post
If the League is relegated so little importance, why have it in the first place? Oh, I know, perhaps because the game is called League of Legends? The problem is that the gameplay and players are taken so far from the actual gameworld that they can't ever have any connection with the characters. The stories might as well be separated form the client side and published as completely separate entities. Except when Riot created the game, they were talking about LoL as a game that incorporates all aspects of video game design, from music, art and lore to balance and professional management, into a single immersive experience.
However, now the whole package is taken apart since the lore side of things isn't meshing with the actual gameplay.
As Eserine, someone you, Cerubois, are familiar with said: Legends Randomly Meeting In a Field.
How could you POSSIBLY mesh that kind of world-threatening lore with this type of gameplay? It's a bit difficult, in all sense of the word. After all; ACTUAL League matches only happen when something BIG international needs to be resolved. Obviously that means each of the millions of matches played each day can't realistically actually happen (unless, and this is just a little headcannon of mine, you consider all those many, many games as "mini-matches" designed to help the Summoners and Champions maintain their edge).

So, yes, Lore DOES have to take a backseat to the gameplay in the longrun, but the same could be said for ANY online game! Look at Starcraft 2:

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING EXAMPLE CONTAINS SPOILERS!!!

Kerrigan's led the majority of the Zerg forces out of the Koprulu sector by the end (leaving only a single broodmother on a derelect Protoss ship behind), but you still have MASSIVE numbers of Zerg players goin' up against the other two races.

Does that mean that EACH AND EVERY battle between those players is a cannon, in-game lore event? No, of course not; it's just people having fun. Same applies to the League matches.

But when Riot DOES incorporate Lore into the gameplay - see Noxus versus Ionia, Rengar versus Kha'Zix, ANY of the SO MANY UNIQUE champion interactions that they're adding with Trundle alone - it is AWESOME!

But that's just my two-cents on the matter.


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Cerubois

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwalda View Post
If the League is relegated so little importance, why have it in the first place? Oh, I know, perhaps because the game is called League of Legends? The problem is that the gameplay and players are taken so far from the actual gameworld that they can't ever have any connection with the characters. The stories might as well be separated form the client side and published as completely separate entities. Except when Riot created the game, they were talking about LoL as a game that incorporates all aspects of video game design, from music, art and lore to balance and professional management, into a single immersive experience.
However, now the whole package is taken apart since the lore side of things isn't meshing with the actual gameplay.
As Eserine, someone you, Cerubois, are familiar with said: Legends Randomly Meeting In a Field.
Erm... The League of Legends is about as important as the United Nations. So... pretty useful, I'd say.
But I agree that the problem with the story has been that it hasn't given us the chance to impact it. It got close when they held the Noxian-Ionian match. That could have been something huge, allowing players to determine the outcome of history. But it was a one-time thing, and as far as I know, it was Riot-employees-only, correct?

I don't think I ever disagreed with what Eserine was saying. I was simply against his way of saying it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Viper View Post
...

I just feel that there is a lack of creativity if you have two people pretty much doing the same thing for similar motivations. LeBlanc came around first, her name is the Deceiver, it works very well for her, but with Lissandra...? I'm not sure, were there no other venues that could have been taken?
I thought this as well, GV, and I figured you might point it out. :P
I feel the same way.


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Xulsigae

Senior Member

04-03-2013

It's a bit generic to say the least. The Frost Watchers and 'Ancient Heroes' seem rather out of the blue and nondescript. It mentions nothing of Trundle, and it seems she already has an army so...? She also reminds me of a cartoon villain. She's evil just to be evil, not much depth.

And of course, she doesn't have an official reason to join the League yet. Let the speculation begin.

I do like how she may have been involved with Sejuani by pretending to be a village seer. Very Tzeentchian.


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HellComet

Senior Member

04-03-2013

im gonna go and guess that the 'Ancient Heroes' are gonna be the Three Sisters


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Morec0

Senior Member

04-03-2013

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Originally Posted by HellComet View Post
im gonna go and guess that the 'Ancient Heroes' are gonna be the Three Sisters
Ooooh, snap! That's brilliant, and makes perfect sense!


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Kuwalda

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morec0 View Post
*snip*
These things are already discussed in the threads I posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
Erm... The League of Legends is about as important as the United Nations. So... pretty useful, I'd say.
But I agree that the problem with the story has been that it hasn't given us the chance to impact it. It got close when they held the Noxian-Ionian match. That could have been something huge, allowing players to determine the outcome of history. But it was a one-time thing, and as far as I know, it was Riot-employees-only, correct?
However, considering how things are going now, the Institute is practically a battleground for rent, because new champions, if they even have any reasons to join the League, are already influential enough outside they don't need the League to boost it. Meanwhile the summoners aka the players, are left completely underdeveloped as a struggling band of magicians, hoping every minute a mighty Troll King comes in looking for some harmless fun.
Lets look at it this way. Kitae is saying:
"Another tournament IP problem is the idea that the LoL universe's summoners control everything. With the super-powerful sorcerers steering fate, the Champions don't have any sense of agency. They're just fighting for reasons that someone else tells them."

This is nice and all until you consider that within the actual game, Trundle and Lissandra (or any other love/hate pair) can go against each other on the SR, which would completely contradict the entire premise of the new framework. Previously, however, that wasn't a problem since the champions needed the Institute, so certain compromises had to be made. Yes, they could have been used in disputes they didn't want to - perhaps Swain had a hundred prisoners executed in Noxus, because he had to team up with Jarvan IV in a match between two landlords fighting over who had prettier mustache. Now, however, I can't see any reason for such matchups, since the champions are the ones steering the world anyway so the only time they'd seek the Institutes help would be to avoid bloodshed - that is, conflicts that are limited to certain factions.
It's like the new Institute is a young and naive teacher on her first day at work in a kindergarten for dysfunctional children.
"Come on now, Tommy, share your car with Gary."
Naturally she would lock herself in her room every night and cry in the corner over her inability to control such a hectic crowd, eventually succumbing to depression and indifference.

[Edit: the League having major political influence would be an interesting way to allude to our modern world where entire nations are held at the mercy of big corporations, banks, etc. who possess invisible, nonexistent or borrowed resources to gain power. Much like the League is a landless institution, having major influence over the world of Runaterra by simply exchanging goods (champions) between nation and providing a service nobody else does. It was either a person with limitless benevolence or a genius entrepreneur who founded the Institude. I tend to lean towards the latter, since you know, all those "Let's Help Africa" operations are mostly started to get someone rich; likewise the League could have an agenda of its own.
So instead of an unknown Ice Witch who joins the League to get political ties, information or weave clever ploys, we get a "mysterious" Ice Witch amassing an army to repopulate Shurima Desert...? Most likely. Probably not to take over the world for the 5000th time.[/edit]

Actually, there were two matches, the first one was Riot-only, not sure if it was even shown to the public. The second one, the rematch, was by players (GuardsmanBob Udyr and Innervating Locket removal).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
I don't think I ever disagreed with what Eserine was saying. I was simply against his way of saying it.
I never said you did.


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HamburgerTime

Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solzan Nemesis View Post
I think the Ice Witch has been having kids and when she gets old kills them and takes there place.To hid her immortality.
This is the part tat was totally half baked to me;
1.the three ice princesses are the direct decedents of the 3 sisters

2. she kills and assumes the identity of the next heir every time she gets old

3. She is cold blooded (dead/undead) so i would argue the children can't be hers

So then she must have been keeping the Heirs alive at least until they procreated then killed them off. So why is the lineage gone? When did she decide it was no longer necessary to keep up her ruse? After the tribe was corrupted enough? or just years ago when her plan was far enough along to not need a fall back?
I mean maybe the tribe is so corrupt they just follow her now, but still it boggles my mind


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Montesque64

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
1.the three ice princesses are the direct decedents of the 3 sisters

2. she kills and assumes the identity of the next heir every time she gets old

3. She is cold blooded (dead/undead) so i would argue the children can't be hers
Well, since we don't have a necronomicon telling us exactly how undeadness works in Runeterra, I think that premise 3 is your problem there. We have no real way to know for sure that she cannot, in fact, have children.

Additionally, I'd like to weigh in on the "nature of the League" argument. I agree that it makes sense to think of the League as hugely influential, and still a central power, but not one that influences day to day life to a huge degree. That explains why many of the powerful individuals of the world seek to join it, in order to gather allies and mine data on enemies, while at the same time allowing the other countries to retain agency and advance plots separately from the League. This would be impossible if the League were concerned with every border dispute between Noxian merchants, or what have you.

Also, I had the same headcannon as Morec0, i.e. that the millions of matches played by us daily were held to keep the Summoners and the Champions sharp, allowing them to practice for matches when things WOULD be on the line.


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Morec0

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwalda View Post
These things are already discussed in the threads I posted.
And where might that Thread be? I've look through the first few pages but didn't see any.

Quote:
However, considering how things are going now, the Institute is practically a battleground for rent, because new champions, if they even have any reasons to join the League, are already influential enough outside they don't need the League to boost it. Meanwhile the summoners aka the players, are left completely underdeveloped as a struggling band of magicians, hoping every minute a mighty Troll King comes in looking for some harmless fun.
Lets look at it this way. Kitae is saying:
"Another tournament IP problem is the idea that the LoL universe's summoners control everything. With the super-powerful sorcerers steering fate, the Champions don't have any sense of agency. They're just fighting for reasons that someone else tells them."

This is nice and all until you consider that within the actual game, Trundle and Lissandra (or any other love/hate pair) can go against each other on the SR, which would completely contradict the entire premise of the new framework. Previously, however, that wasn't a problem since the champions needed the Institute, so certain compromises had to be made. Yes, they could have been used in disputes they didn't want to - perhaps Swain had a hundred prisoners executed in Noxus, because he had to team up with Jarvan IV in a match between two landlords fighting over who had prettier mustache. Now, however, I can't see any reason for such matchups, since the champions are the ones steering the world anyway so the only time they'd seek the Institutes help would be to avoid bloodshed - that is, conflicts that are limited to certain factions.
It's like the new Institute is a young and naive teacher on her first day at work in a kindergarten for dysfunctional children.
"Come on now, Tommy, share your car with Gary."
Naturally she would lock herself in her room every night and cry in the corner over her inability to control such a hectic crowd, eventually succumbing to depression and indifference.

[Edit: the League having major political influence would be an interesting way to allude to our modern world where entire nations are held at the mercy of big corporations, banks, etc. who possess invisible, nonexistent or borrowed resources to gain power. Much like the League is a landless institution, having major influence over the world of Runaterra by simply exchanging goods (champions) between nation and providing a service nobody else does. It was either a person with limitless benevolence or a genius entrepreneur who founded the Institude. I tend to lean towards the latter, since you know, all those "Let's Help Africa" operations are mostly started to get someone rich; likewise the League could have an agenda of its own.
So instead of an unknown Ice Witch who joins the League to get political ties, information or weave clever ploys, we get a "mysterious" Ice Witch amassing an army to repopulate Shurima Desert...? Most likely. Probably not to take over the world for the 5000th time.[/edit]
The purpose of the League isn't to handle those little disputes, those are for the nations themsleves to handle. In fact, if I recall correctly, the League dosn't meddle in the afairs of city sates until they start to pose a greater threat to the world (war threatening to tear the world apart, one of the time). The nations still have to govern themselves, they just show up to provide super assistance when things start to get out of hand (and maybe even relief programs of some sort).

And I don't understand the logic behind your simile. Probably because your example beforehand is so preposterous.

And, I don't know how many times this has to be said, even IF the Summoners know that the Ice Witch is evil and plans to conqure Freljord; there isn't ANYTHING they can do about it. They are bound to 1) keep the Champion's thoughts and plans secret after their minds are connected on the Fields of justice, and 2) An inter-Freljord problem like that would be out of their jurisdiction. Hence why, despite the fact they knew from the start that Swain wanted to take over Noxus and then also kill Jaravan IV, they didn't move to stop him.

They don't make preemptive moves, they react. That is their purpose.

EDIT:

Also, on the matter of heirs; it never specifies they were her daughters. Only successors.

We all have a very western way of thinking about this; bloodline connections between successors, but it could have been a much more tribal secenario, and when Lissandra "died" every single time, it was just the prettiest or strongest woman that became next in line. She then killed them and moved on, no need for children.

EDIT2:

OF COURSE! The lore DOES state that her human form was capable of aging, which, obviously, means it had some life in it. This means that she could in fact have children, and thus her successors.

I dunno, Valoran can be weird sometimes.


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Kuwalda

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morec0 View Post
And where might that Thread be? I've look through the first few pages but didn't see any.

The purpose of the League isn't to handle those little disputes, those are for the nations themsleves to handle. In fact, if I recall correctly, the League dosn't meddle in the afairs of city sates until they start to pose a greater threat to the world (war threatening to tear the world apart, one of the time). The nations still have to govern themselves, they just show up to provide super assistance when things start to get out of hand (and maybe even relief programs of some sort).

And I don't understand the logic behind your simile. Probably because your example beforehand is so preposterous.

And, I don't know how many times this has to be said, even IF the Summoners know that the Ice Witch is evil and plans to conqure Freljord; there isn't ANYTHING they can do about it. They are bound to 1) keep the Champion's thoughts and plans secret after their minds are connected on the Fields of justice, and 2) An inter-Freljord problem like that would be out of their jurisdiction. Hence why, despite the fact they knew from the start that Swain wanted to take over Noxus and then also kill Jaravan IV, they didn't move to stop him.

They don't make preemptive moves, they react. That is their purpose.
Previous page, top post.

You think I'm suggesting the Institute should be a world police of some sorts, butting into other nation's internal affairs simply because they deem themselves important enough. No, I'm saying the Institute could be a political power of its own, with its own agenda, interfering when they feel necessary not to impose some "holy morality", but to further their selfish goals.
I'm not saying the Summoners have to stop the Ice Witch, because she is "evil" and trying to conquer Freljord. I'm saying the knowledge of it is already important enough to make them relevant and that is the true power the Institute holds, making so that other powers can't neglect them.
With new champions no longer having any reason to join the league, however, the Institute is downgraded to a service provider. On what grounds are a bunch of mages, albeit powerful, goint to burst in and say "guys, this is going out of hand, lets settle this in the Fields of justice"? The answer is: none. As I said, they are left to wait and hope that perhaps the rulers decide to avoid bloodshed and spare the lives of their soldiers at the expense of some champions having to take a trip to the Institute.
This wouldn't be a problem if the gameplay wasn't centered to the League, but it is, because the actual player is taken so far from the influences that actually matter and are important to the gameworld.

I'm not sure if you were referring to my Swain & Jarvan example, but that was more meant as a joke to illustrate the point.