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Relation between Diana and Leona

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Grand Viper

Senior Member

08-23-2014

Because it would take far too much time for me to post everything I ever wrote about Leo and Diana, here's the fanfiction (It's a literal novel I'm finishing up, 50k+ words):

Equinox

- Fanfic.net url: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8414814/1/Equinox (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8414814/1/Equinox)

-Main forums url: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com....php?t=2460090 (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2460090)

-----------------

If you want to skip that, then I'll post the comparison/contrast of Leona and Diana from an old thread I had been discussing in. The thread I take these snippers from is in this hyperlink here (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2868275)

Quote:
Grand Viper:


-Ancient religions with the idea of oppression, complete genocide of one half of their religion.

-Why did it happen in the first place. Why did it happen? I'll come to some theories of it in a bit.

-Leona's lore states it was only one man who had been the avatar before her, yet his armor somehow magically fitted her, and when looking at Diana's teaser you see the mural depicting two very female and similar looking ancestors to Leona and Diana.

-Leona and Diana are already in conflict. All of the Solari with one Lunari avatar, possibly all of the Rakkor and the lone Lunari avatar. What will adding Nami do to benefit this? The responsibilities of the Lunari? Will get to this soon.

-Using Greek mythology and terminology because Leona and Diana are strongly influenced by it (And if anyone points out that Diana is Roman I am aware, Artemis is the Greek version, move on, it's the Rakkor for crying out loud, they've got a guy named Pantheon and the Romans were strongly influenced by the Greeks as well)

The conflict between Leona and Diana. What is there?

-Personal level: Leona and Diana. Beliefs, personalities, responsibilities

But wait, responsibilities, this is where you can say this is where Nami can fill in! No. Diana's responsibilities rely on bringing the Lunari back to light, to show those who stepped on them the truth, and to show that the injustice that had been perpetrated on them. That right there? That is a lot to deal with. She has a whole lot on her plate. Is she willing to kill Leona? On the fields? Perhaps. Off the fields? Would she? Would that weigh on her conscience? Is she so far gone? Can she be brought back?

Leona's responsibilities involve what, killing Diana? Is that her responsibility? No, I don't think so, then we repeat the exact same cycle of oppression as before. Leona doesn't like killing, that's why she was almost executed at the Rite of Kor, for her kind heart, for not wanting to kill her friend. Stylus said before, what greater tragedy is there than having to kill someone you love? And no hurr durr moments here, I am speaking of Agape love since she demonstrated that for a character that honestly could be used as a pretty decent plot device. Leona has that capability in her to love someone to such a degree. What then would Leona's responsibility be? To break the cycle of what the Solari had done to the Lunari, but not by endangering her own people, and trying to make sure Diana doesn't get stabbed and then figuring out what to do from there to try and make balance again. Would she make the choice to kill Diana? Yes or no? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not! That's the juicy conflict!

-Solari vs Lunari: Different ideologies? How so? They were two halves of the same religion. Considering the Rakkor are based on the Spartans and that they have a similar ruling government, a council. It was served by 28 elders, and 2 ruling kings. Can that be played upon with the idea of the Solari avatar and the Lunari avatar? Possibly. So why would the Solari want to wipe out the Lunari?

The point I am coming to is that the Spartans were xenophobic, meaning they did not want anyone coming close to them. The Rakkor killed both Demacian patrols and Noxian patrols stupid enough to come to their mountain on a continual basis until the League of Legends was established (Pantheon's lore). We get the feeling of xenophobia from them, so how does this play into anything?

What if the Lunari were more accepting of others? That sounds silly, but what if the Solari were the xenophobes, the one who did not want anyone coming into their fold except those who are Rakkor, Solari or Lunari recognized, and the Lunari were more about accepting anyone and everyone? A mothering, caring figure to contrast the burning idea of the Solari. The Solari have this negative connotation because we already know they wiped out the Lunari so it's not that farfetched. What if the Lunari were willing to accept more people into the fold, and were therefore able to grow in number, or were simply bringing in unwanted outsiders to try and help the fact that a population stagnates greatly without more open borders especially when confined to a mountain? Would that not be threatening to a religion?

The Moon can never overpower the Sun, the Moon does not overrule the Sun, the Moon does not command the Sun, so what could be done? And before anyone says anything about how silly that is, I am going to cite the persecution of the Christians by the Romans, the persecution of the Pagans by the Christians after they came into power and the persecution of the Cathars in the medieval ages. These are the ones I know best and off the top of my head, but there are many examples of persecution being abysmally stupid, ignorant and pigheaded. It's not a smart person's choice most of the time and there is always more to it than the simplicity I gave it just now.

-The Sun and the Moon.

The Sun was represented by Helios, the personification of the Sun itself. Apollo was another Sun god, and became associated with Helios more closely due to the popularity and that he gained since Helios was an older Titan god belonging to an older age but that is really derailing from my point.

The Sun was usually seen as a male, I cannot recall a culture where the sun was a female but some cultures that had the Sun as a male are: Greeks, Romans, Egyptians. Greeks being the main emphasis here.

The Moon was represented by Artemis, by Selene and by Hecate. Artemis was the unwed, pure Maiden and the huntress, Selene was married to Helios, which was the original definition, the idea of man and woman in unity and the idea of opposing factors and so forth, so what is Hecate? I don't mean the current idea of Hecate, the older idea of Hecate was meant to be associated with chaos, with the emotion of women, of witches in the bad connotation. However, Hecate was also seen as a protector of households and could be seen as a good goddess as well. Why mention this?

For those of you who can off the top of your head, recall MacBeth. The beginning has the three witches. They are the representatives of the moon: The Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone (Artemis/Diana, Selene, Hecate). Keep in mind of all the connotation behind it, both the positive and negative.

This is a Greek idea. They believed that the moon had three faces that it showed: the Crescent Moon was Artemis, the Full Moon was Selene, the Waning Moon was Hecate. Why say this now? Because these are what compromise of the moon that Diana so loves. Look at what she wears, look at what she wields, look at her personality. Will get into this afterwards. First, the broadest idea of conflict:

-The Sun killed the Moon. Balance crushed, disturbed, thrown out the window and hits the curb. Can that be a reason for why no more Solari or Lunari avatars were seen until Leona and Diana? Is that a sign from the Heavens that they need to do something? Should they continue the cycle of ignorance, of stupidity, of death and so forth, or are they meant for something more?

With all of that said, now let's look at Leona and Diana.

Has Leona recognized and realized her true position as the Avatar of the Solari? Yes? No? Why? Why not? Diana is not dead. If she was a "proper" Solari avatar, Diana would be dead and buried and not a problem to be concerned about. There's conflict right there. There is more to say about this, but let's go on to Diana since I did give Leo a bit more screen time a few paragraphs above.

Has Diana realized her true position as the Avatar of the Lunari? I say no. She's fulfilling only two of the three requirements. Look at her, she's cold. That's not what the idea of the moon is, the idea of the moon is meant to encompass all three faces and is meant to be in balance with itself before it does anything else. She's actually meant to be caring for others, as strange as it seems. She's the opposite of the Sun. The Sun burns, the Moon embraces. Leona has to have seen something that once flickered there or else Diana is just some cold ass person who never gave a d*mn and deserves to be killed, but we know she's supposed to be a tragic figure. Perhaps we could pull ideas from Greek tragedy in regards to this? Detracting from my point, onto the next.

Look at how she's designed. The woman, the armor, the weapon. The Maiden, the Mother that protects her child, and the Crone that cuts down those who dare harm her. Why would I call the scythe weapon the crone when it is labeled crescent blade? Because the point of the Maiden and the Crone was that the Crescent Moon and the Waning Moon are literal flip sides. You flip the Crescent moon one way, it's the Waning moon! Flip it the other? It's the Maiden! Artemis and Hecate were two women you do not want cross with you in the slightest. They were meant to be interchanged and interposed in such a way.

Someone who was naive once, and someone who is aged and experienced and knows much about life. The Maiden can be seen as the bloom of youth, the naivety, the foolishness, but in this case she is also associated with the Huntress because Diana is associated with the Moon. She is someone you know you do not want to cross, look at what happened to those that did. The Crone, can be seen as a wise old woman, or a spiteful old thing that is malicious and generally disagreeable, someone who has experienced life and knows what to expect. Young age, old age. Youth, wisdom. Is that how Diana views herself now?

(The three faces of the moon can and are also representations of the life cycle of a woman.)

Does Diana have much emotion? No? Isn't that a little odd, or even...off? Isn't that strange how she closes up in such a matter? She's quite vengeful, and with the way she dashes and reaches out to grab you, she has no care whatsoever for her own protection. She wants the Lunari to be brought back, but the way she speaks, the way she carries herself, maybe she's empty. Is that someone who realizes all three faces of the moon, all the ideas and all the responsibilities behind being the Lunari avatar, or is she still in the process of learning?

What about her jokes? Yeah I know, I shouldn't read into them much, except..."Knock knock. Who's there? The moon. It's far away! You were alone the whole time HA HA!"

Stupid joke or not, they do say that behind every joke there's a facet of truth (For example Vayne and Poppy's hilarious jokes). Is that how she actually feels, since she's the only Lunari? Does she want to have more? Does she need more?

Look at the armor of Diana, it's dull. If you ever looked at the moon, you'll notice that it's pretty bright and shiny because it's a reflection of the sun. Is that the true state of the armor? Is this Diana's realized potential?

The final question for Diana is this: Is this her duty as the Lunari Avatar, for her to try and act like the Solari did to the Lunari and pay them back by bringing down the sun, or is there more?


This is just one snippet. Hope you enjoy!


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NeoJusteBelmont

Senior Member

08-23-2014

Hm, this changes things I've learned about the Targon dwellers. I thought that when they said 'only facing Demacia and Noxus army when outnumbered at least ten to one', the Rakkor tribe are like mercenary tribes that lent their services to anyone who is preparing for war, and preferring the side which lacks soldiers. Their reward money is used to mitigate their lack of food back home, but they can only cover so much. But from what's said above, it's like they're super-isolationist kinda like the Japanese of the past, and would strike against Demacians or Noxus alike that dared come near them, even if they come in small numbers.

And again, I'll give one more thing about the whole Sun vs Moon thing: It was all still a bit vague on what's going on. Diana did not discover anything about the Solari being responsible about it, none of the lore said about Solari doing the wipeout. It was just about "Lunari existed and these Solari idiots refused to acknowledge them!? How dare they!". Meaning that we're all just using associations. Who knows, Solari might have a good reason why Lunari needed to be taken out of the history records, even if they're not the one responsible doing the wipe out? Like, what if the Moon and Lunari weren't as benevolent as Diana claimed it to be? Look at the transformation result: Diana, after the moon's blessing, instead went crazy and on a murderous rampage. Leona, after the sun's blessings, even forgave the Rakkor and continued being herself. Maybe the Lunari has a terrible secret that endangers the world, and when the Solari said "Just let it go, please, or else the world will be in danger", they were like "No! Privacy invasion! How dare you!". Then either Solari taught them the hard way, or that secret bit them in the ass and really endangered the world, on top of having the Lunari wiped out because of it, leaving the Solari to clean up the mess and ensure things like that never happened again.

We're still unclear who did the whole Lunari wipeout, the one claiming the Solari did it might be some sort of fiction that gets too famous and then be accepted as the truth. Bottom line, I think we might be giving a little too much **** on the Solari based on non-official works... So we're really going to forget that in general, the sect was really about the protect the innocents?

Sometimes I see this 'aw, the poor race, being persecuted' thing, like the Lunari, and it's getting like "They are always innocent and right! How dare the persecutors!" without looking at the other side of the coin. Getting kinda sick of it, honestly.


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

08-23-2014

I'd have to delve into more headcanon about what happened between the Solari and the Lunari, but the big overarching idea with the two is really simple: The Solari betrayed the Lunari. This is shown in Diana's teaser art, and it has to have this theme. Our history has done far worse to far less deserving people, which is why in my own writing I modeled the Lunari massacre after the slaughter of the Cathars and Montsegur.

The saying, "Kill them all and let God sort them out," comes from the Crusade against the Cathars. It was the response given to a knight by his commanding officer when he asked how will they be able to tell the difference between one of their own (a Catholic) and a Cathar practitioner.

The Lunari should be mostly innocent, but they could easily instigate the massacre by really simple ways. The easiest way is the sway of power and the possibility that the Lunari were not as xenophobic as the Solari and were willing to accept more into their ranks, thereby being becoming than their parent religion.

Keep in mind that the Rakkor are a bunch of xenophobes, and the Solari are even more reclusive than the Rakkor while the Lunari were actually accessible via not a giant mountain. You could say that the Lunari were more "down to earth".

I am hilarious.


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NeoJusteBelmont

Senior Member

08-24-2014

Wait, so let me get this straight.

With the post above, you basically admit that "Solari are genocidal fascists who just wanted to be the dominant religion while the Lunari are much more benevolent and poor races who are victimized" is basically something out of your fic/headcanon and then people liked it so much that they have been thinking that it's what actually happened in the canon?

... Well, it wasn't your fault. But I guess I could understand where this wave of "Diana Whitewashing Club" come from...


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

08-25-2014

Quote:
NeoJusteBelmont:
Wait, so let me get this straight.

With the post above, you basically admit that "Solari are genocidal fascists who just wanted to be the dominant religion while the Lunari are much more benevolent and poor races who are victimized" is basically something out of your fic/headcanon and then people liked it so much that they have been thinking that it's what actually happened in the canon?

... Well, it wasn't your fault. But I guess I could understand where this wave of "Diana Whitewashing Club" come from...


If I somehow managed to start a wave, then I have to say I'm surprised I'm that influential. I think you're giving me a bit way too much credit, since Riot essentially has inferred that the Solari done and goofed up. Allow me to explain.

Keep in mind, what I say next is almost all headcanon . I will highlight the sections from Riot's lore in bold. I will reference what I can because I have direct access to the posts/information.

If you want me to go into much more detail, the Lunari were in the wrong because they were openly opposing the Solari and the Rakkor's traditions and rules. Rather than denying people to become a part of their religion, they embraced everyone, possibly including sycophants and people who would do anything in the name of religion and spies. The Solari and Lunari could have had a brief skirmish, but the Solari wouldn't kill their sister religion that easily. They would offer them a chance to rid themselves of all non-Rakkor disciples because they cannot be trusted, this is the point of xenophobia (as seen in Pantheon's lore), and the Lunari would refuse to comply. This in turn could lead into their slaughter and the Solari being punished.

After the death of the Lunari avatar, there was not another Solari avatar for centuries. (Leona's lore)

For killing the Lunari, the Solari were punished. If they were not in the wrong, then they would have had their continued line of Sun avatars post-Lunari slaughter. Instead they became a myth. But, lo and behold, when the Solari avatar does return, so does the Lunari avatar. This is a chance for them to fix the cycle, and this is where the tragedy can plant its roots into and where you can really develop it.

But if the Solari were not in the wrong, then the Solari avatars would not be a myth, now would they? (Leona's lore) They would have a continued lineage, and even so, you cannot, under any circumstance, forget what the Solari would think of the Lunari: The Moon is subject to the Sun. They never really understood why, because they didn't have the capability to figure it out, but we know that moonlight is a lie. Moonlight isn't actually "the moon's light", it's the moon reflecting the sun's rays off its surface and providing light that way, like a giant mirror.

This leads into another part of the tragedy: The moon cannot overcome, or "kill", the sun, because the moon would lose its only light.

Now, why should the ancient Lunari be made all sweet and nice and totally awesome possum? Because Diana is not. This is known as dramatic irony because Diana has become the very monster that she despises and cannot see it. Diana is doing what she thinks is right and doesn't care who or what must be killed in order for her to bring back a "balance" of sorts. (Diana's lore, IronStylus posts that I cannot remember where to find them unfortunately)

Leona however, is the flipside of the ancient Solari. She is kinder, more understanding, and much less prone to killing as seen in her background and League judgement. (Leona's lore)

This too is known as dramatic irony.

This tragic cycle of the Sun and Moon being at odds with one another will continue with Diana and Leona, and is meant to be punctuated by the fact that Leona and Diana love one another (Reference: IronStylus posts http://puu.sh/aZfFv/8edbe09792.jpg (http://puu.sh/aZfFv/8edbe09792.jpg) and the direct thread http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...php?p=27884485 (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=27884485)) which I decided to use to compound the tragedy rather than make it the baseline of the tragedy. The fact that the Solari were in the wrong and the Lunari were in the right makes it more dramatic when Leona wants to make things better but Diana laughs it off saying that she needs to purge the Solari of their corruption and have them start anew.

I used what Riot gave to us and applied it in a narrative. Yes, the Solari were a bunch of jerks, boo hoo, it serves the story's purpose now and even so, people in real life have done the same bit by bit. Look at the context, you're looking at an entirely different culture who still doesn't have electricity during what would be the Industrial Revolution historic period (Piltover and Zaun) who are culturally and traditionally xenophobic and viciously slaughter anyone who dares intrude on their territory . (Pantheon's Lore. He's not the Artisan for jokes.) And keep in mind, Solari are culturally Rakkor, they're just the scholars/religious sect.


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NeoJusteBelmont

Senior Member

08-25-2014

I'm gonna start out with a disclaimer that this is probably what I think of and more closer to "My headcanon". Just like yours.

Well, as far as Rakkor goes, the lore of Pantheon has never said about "Viciously slaughter anyone who dares intrude on their territory." Let's take a look at Pantheon's background again:

Quote:
Each member of the tribe is bred to be a disciplined and vicious warrior, preferring to battle soldiers of either the Noxian or Demacian armies only when outnumbered at least ten to one.


Nowhere did it say that they'd slaughter anyone that comes across them. This is where I get the idea of them being like a xenophobic isolationist (like the Japanese before Meiji Restoration. Okay, Pantheon and the Rakkor are based on the Spartans, but that's the closest thing I can come up with in terms of comparison about 'slaughter anyone who comes across'.). This is where I get that they may be a tribe of sellswords, mercenaries, warrior races that lent their services whenever there's battle (something similar to Aatrox. I thought we had a loose theory about the link between the two somewhere), hence their preference to fight only when outnumbered. Now imagine if there's one lost Demacian soldier stumbling upon the tribe. If it's my way of thinking, the Rakkor would just leave him alone, slaughtering him would not be worth it and doesn't count as a glorious war.

But if either Demacia/Noxus/any other country come near the tribe bringing an army with intentions to trample the tribe on their way, whatever their intentions are? It's on.

But yeah, the thing is, I don't believe they're that xenophobic and slaughtering everyone else who comes across. They may spare some people (especially if they're not the fighting type), but they certainly do not provide means for foreigners to stay, something more like "Do whatever your business here quickly and shoo."

And also for the record, I did not say that the Solari are all cool guys who are always in the right. But the thing is, for each light side, there must always be a dark side. I had thought that Riot is more trying to enforce 'everyone is Neutral' stance, that was why through retcons, they rounded up Noxus so they do not like the "Hurr durr Imma EVIL faction which is the cause of trouble on ANYONE" they used to be. I do not shy on the possibility that they could be responsible of the Lunari genocide. However, I like to think it better that for all their fascism and dominance-hungry, the Solari ALSO has good points: They were still a dedicated force trying to protect the innocents. Something very similar to Kayle's angelic order (Whose dark side is 'being too extremist at times', to which Morgana's claim as 'tyrants' might not be so out of place).

Whereas there's a disturbing amount of imbalance in the portrayal of the Lunari even if what we know so far is very little. They're always going to be the 'Aww you poor prejudiced race who needs a hug' and woe betide anyone who dares being mean to them (Solari)! Monsterize those who ever look at this race so badly! To be honest, I've seen this kind of archetype even outside League of Legends to the point I'm getting kinda sick of it. This is why I said that right now, the Lunari has always been a complete mystery, all Diana discovered was just their EXISTENCE, not their culture and way of living so we cannot make a sound judgment about them and how 'justified' they were. For every good side, there's always a dark side, and I'm trying to point out that there should be some dark sides of the Lunari, thus fulfilling what Riot aimed about 'everyone is Neutral'.

Right and wrong, it's only a matter of perspective. And probably, even if I will probably be the only one who thinks that the Lunari isn't always right and there may be more than just "I want dominance in our worship style" about how the Solari buried the Lunari in history... I will stand by it, but it might not be permanent, time can change people after all.

No offense meant.


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Grand Viper

Senior Member

08-25-2014

Keep in mind of Pantheon's origins: He was not originally Rakkor. He was designed as Stanpar, an anamgram of Spartan, and it was not until Leona's release that he was remade into Rakkor. Aside from the fact that Pantheon looks like a Spartan, has a Greek noun for a name, says quotes from 300, Rakkor training is also similar to Spartan training:

Quote:
“The Rakkor have no concept of ‘training.’ For my people, what you call ‘training’ is the height of childhood experience. We relish the day we first enter the arena with our peers, wielding wooden shields, spears and swords. We live for the dream of one day receiving a relic-weapon. Mine—my spear and shield—belonged to a warrior called Zeonia long ago. One day, when I die in glorious battle, they will be passed on again.”
Pantheon, JoJ Issue 25 (http://joj.leagueoflegends.com/en/issue-25-22-july-21-cle.html)

Then the final nail in the coffin is the artwork for Pantheon:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...iginalSkin.jpg (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120617125548/leagueoflegends/images/6/6b/Pantheon_OriginalSkin.jpg)

The Greek architecture they're fighting in, the multiple other hoplites and the fact that they're Spartan influenced all lead credible evidence to them being influenced by Spartans. As for the xenophobia, they are a lone tribe of people living on a mountain that has consistently protected themselves against the only 2 major cultures that can interact with them in a practical sense: Demacia and Noxus.

Outside of the Shurimans whose culture we have no idea of, nor were they a concept back when Leona was released, Demacia and Noxus are the only 2 cultures that interacted with the Rakkor and have done so only on a war front for centuries, literal centuries even millennia, since the Rakkor have existed since the first Rune War as stated in Pantheon's lore:

Quote:
Far above the clouds on Mount Targon resides a stalwart tribe of people known as the Rakkor who still revere combat and war as ultimate artforms. They remember the Runewars of Runeterra and know that the League of Legends can only repress the rising tides of violence for so long. Each member of the tribe is bred to be a disciplined and vicious warrior, preferring to battle soldiers of either the Noxian or Demacian armies only when outnumbered at least ten to one.


Do you think they trade with Demacia/Noxus? Do they keep to themselves? You have to look at it from a different perspective, they are an alternate culture that literally hole themselves up on a mountain which grants them an immense tactical advantage so people can't intrude.

Maybe they won't kill a lone straggling Demacian soldier, but my argument is that they would, really, really easily and with no form of bad conscience. It may not be glorious, but the "straggler" can easily be a spy for Demacia or a multitude of other things unless the Rakkor watched and allow the soldier to run away so he/she can warn Demacia "Don't mess with these guys!" It matters on the context that the straggler was found.

With all of that said, the Solari are Rakkor. Culturally, they are Rakkor. They live even higher up on the mountain though, and are the scholarly/religious aspects of the Rakkor, but their beliefs coincide with the Rakkor.

I'm aware of the fact that few things in life are so black and white. I actually studied this for many years, it was a part of my education, but I am also trying to look at the narrative. You're absolutely right, I could make it so that neither the Solari and the Lunari were truly in the "right", but you cannot ignore the fact that the Solari wiped out the Lunari. War or not, the Solari exterminated the Lunari, removed all traces of their existence that they could and lost their Sun avatar.

When I am writing a narrative I will use whatever tools I have on hand to be able to write a good story, and I will use what I can to push the themes I need to in order to do so.

An addition to my headcanon and a question I posit to you: How did Diana find the Lunari armor?

Think about it. If the Lunari avatar had been killed by the Solari avatar as depicted in the murals, the Lunari's armor and weapon should have been erased. There should be no evidence of the Lunari existing, including their Shangri La temple.
What if the Solari avatar who killed the Lunari avatar sealed the armor away in the temple as a sort of realization of her error, by killing her other half? The murals show the Solari avatar killing the Lunari avatar, who looks hurt, betrayed by this fact. Would the Solari avatar let the armor of the Lunari slide away from her if she was so hellbent? What if it was the Solari avatar who hid away all those clues in her own sacred texts, who did all of this as a way for a future generation to make up for the fact that they committed an atrocity?

The Solari avatar killed the Lunari avatar. There is no feasible way for her weapon and her armor to not be taken by the Solari unless it's the head of the entire religion who takes it and does with it as she pleases.

So you have the idea of redemption added in, and if you looked at the previous discussion I held with Leona and Diana, you will see that I wasn't hiding this information nor had I just come up with it now: Reference (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2868275&page=3).

And to push the idea of forgiveness from the Solari avatar I even wrote this in the story:

Quote:
"...You are looking...in Ancient Solari texts, about a cult that was allegedly killed by them, to find the Lunari's super secret hidden temple that apparently no one has been able to find in centuries, in or around a place that one could assume would be near Mount Targon, yes? I'm following you correctly so far? Have I missed anything?"


Because Diana discovered the secret Lunari temple by looking in Solari texts. This is how she rediscovered the temple of the Lunari, the clothing, the weapon, the relics, every last remnant of the Lunari was done by the text of the Solari. Which I play with, to punctuate this section:

Quote:
"How did you find this temple, Diana?"

Diana glanced at Leona, shook her head, and could not help but mock her. "I threw a rock in a direction and ran after it. It worked after then fifty seventh try."

"Through ancient Solari texts that were made accessible only after the Avatar's death to the rest of the council. Before that, only the Solari avatar could access it."

"That means someone on the council was formerly a Lunari mem…"

Diana stopped, and fell quiet. That was impossible. Almost every single murals that lined the walls depicted some sort of witch hunt for the Lunari. They were wiped out completely. How could a single member get by the eyes of the avatar? How lucky could they have been? In fact...how were the murals even made? It would take a lot of time, a lot of effort, to do so in secret.

"And it occurred to me, Diana, when was the last Solari avatar?"

"Before you? Centuries ago."

"And how long would you say it would take for our society to forget about the Lunari's existence?"

Diana stared at Leona long and hard, wanting to say the first thing that came to mind, 'You are an idiot', except, it held some water.

Leona pointed downwards and asked, "Can you read it aloud, Diana? Please?"

The Moonlit avatar jumped down into the sarcophagus, seeing the lid had been pushed to the side into a perfect slot, and she wondered who could have done all of this.

"In here lies my Sin." Diana cocked her head and attempted to re-read it several times. "No, that is a long e. See-en? Ever since her light faded from the world, so did mine. For what I had done, there is no redemption. If not even Solarus will forgive me, why should I forgive myself?"

Diana looked further down the scratchings on the sarcophagus and saw that they seemed to filled every nook, every crevice. They overlapped one another as though they were done in a panicked frenzy at times. Her fingers rubbed against a black stain, it crumbled and a rotted copper whiffed upwards.

Eventually she found the rest of the text, located approximately where one's feet would be if they lied down within the tomb, and started to read once more.

"I had to do it. I had to do it, I kept telling myself that, but oh Solarus, oh Lunara, what had I done? The moment her light faded, I lost my Shield. I lost my Sin. In here I have laid to rest our masks, so that I could see as I once did before. All I can do is here and now, swear that I will make this right one day. Albina."


Fun fact: Su'en, better known as "Sin" or Nanna, was the Sumerian god of the Moon. It is the earliest example in our history of the word "Sin" being used, and how it has changed in meaning over the millennia we all know very well. Everything I write, I write for a reason.

To start bringing this to a wrap, I will admit that I am one of those guys who does not like that Noxus is shown as evil and Demacia as good. I would prefer Demacia and Noxus to be less "defined" as Good and Evil, despite Noxus literally having a skull mountain that the Grand General's fortress resides upon, this is because of the current narrative. There should be less differences and more similarities because it accents and punctuates the narrative between the two. Their similarities would strengthen the overall themes and narrative of their story and it is why it should be done.

The Solari being in the wrong and then wanting to make up for it, to set things right, but the people they had oppressed, the Lunari, now refuse their kindness, sends a much stronger message. You're right, the two can be made neutral really easily, that either of them could have, but then ask yourself this: Does death deserve death? Should the Solari feed into that cycle, did the Solari do the right thing by the extermination of their own people since the Lunari were also Rakkor?

Of course there's a dark side to every "good", which is what I said in my previous post:

Quote:
If you want me to go into much more detail, the Lunari were in the wrong because they were openly opposing the Solari and the Rakkor's traditions and rules. Rather than denying people to become a part of their religion, they embraced everyone, possibly including sycophants and people who would do anything in the name of religion and spies. The Solari and Lunari could have had a brief skirmish, but the Solari wouldn't kill their sister religion that easily. They would offer them a chance to rid themselves of all non-Rakkor disciples because they cannot be trusted, this is the point of xenophobia (as seen in Pantheon's lore), and the Lunari would refuse to comply. This in turn could lead into their slaughter and the Solari being punished.


Lunari followers were responsible for stating the engagement and when given the chance to redeem themselves and absolve themselves, they refused.

I never said the Solari don't have good points, but if the Solari are only good then what is Diana? A cackling evil jackass who just kills for the Moon?

By IronStylus' own admission (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=40665528#post40665528),

Quote:
"So, the super-secret head-canon I have, which I have no idea if it'll be actually integrated, but it's something that Team Diana talked about way back in the day.. is that her mark is a physical brand. The Solari elders literally took a tool and burned that mark into her face. Though, they were so blinded by ignorance, or maybe they liked irony so much, that they branded her with the ancient symbol of the moon. This scar burned her hair, giving her a larger forehead. After she flipped out, surrendering all her humanity to deep sadness and pain, that's when this thing became full of fancy. That's when her bond with the moon began. The marks on her eyes weren't makeup, they were burn marks and scorches coming from the magicalmoonlight affecting her eyes and causing her tears to boil on her face.

Soooooo yeah. A little emo."


Which really, makes the Solari even more "bad" and I ignored this part of the lore because it was too much. It was too much how evil the Solari are because if Leona heard about this and she's meant to have the entire love shtick with Diana and meant to try and sympathize with her but become her enemy, physically branding someone marks a whole new tonal shift and Leona would not forgive that. Leona would side with Diana because Diana's reaction would make more than just "sense".

Because it helps punch up the narrative and makes it more powerful in my perspective, that is why the Solari should have originally be in the wrong, because it makes a better story. It makes it a more interesting read because the themes that can be explored are punctuated, empowered.

Look at it from a narrative perspective and see how the story can be developed and be told rather than seeing it from, "Well it's a matter of perspective. They were both right, and they were both wrong," because that doesn't lead into conflict. That doesn't say anything.

If they were both "neutral" then why are the Lunari wiped out? Why is Diana called a heretic? Why is Diana condemned to death for discovering the wife/sister/other half of their own religion? The Sun and the Moon are cycles of the day and night, it is a natural cycle, and the Lunari died. Someone effectively disrupted their own natural cycle of day and night, of removing the moon and its importance, and they were punished for doing so.

If it was true neutrality, then there would be more Solari avatars, would there not be? Why deprive your own chosen people of their avatar if they had done exactly what you wanted them to do? Look at the bigger context because we are dealing with the Sun and the Moon who in the world of League of Legends are deity figures, they are sentient up to a degree and they have a will that their avatars must carry out. Why punish your own followers if they had done everything you asked them to?


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NeoJusteBelmont

Senior Member

08-25-2014

Okay so that was a REALLY long debate I'm afraid for the most part I'll just be nodding my head. Except for a few points. Sorry if most of your statements wouldn't be answered. If I revisit it one day, I may come up with further questions.

Well what I'm saying about the Japanese isolationist was because I really could speak of them better than how I speak of Spartans. It's just a matter of what you have read so far. I'm kinda more of an anime guy that goes more about Japanese history, so it was more familiar to me. I know Pantheon and the Rakkors are based on the Spartans, it's just that rather than I speak my mouth about what I think Spartan is, and then proven to be wrong with better history buffs, I'd rather not speak about it and put another similar event that is more familiar to me. Hope you understand that one. Bottom line on that part: Pantheon and Rakkor are based on Sparta. Nuff said.

While the straggler theory can make sense, I'm kind of inclined that they're not completely brutal and that kind of murderous thing. Okay, in terms of war, they ARE brutal. But... imagine in case there's a straggler that REALLY say that they REALLY need to cross the barrier from north (Demacia/Noxus/Piltover/Zaun/etc) to the southern area (Something like the Shurima Desert), would the Rakkor just kill them because "YOU'VE SEEN US. NOW YOU MUST DIE."? If you want to know instances of crossing the mountains like that, look no further than Annie's parents, they're from Noxus (north), retreated to the Voodoo Lands (south). I know that Mt. Targon isn't the only mountain in the barrier, but from the look of the map, the other parts of the mountains could be very harsh to pass.

As far as the relationship, I'd like to bring up their history and what they stand for. They live and breathe for the arts of war. Now what kind of war BEFORE the formation of the League of Legends could they participate in if they're content with just holing themselves up in their mountains? Defending themselves from intruders from Demacia and Noxus is one thing, but that doesn't happen daily enough (and really, Demacia and Noxus wouldn't be stupid enough to keep sending their soldiers to them for no apparent reason and so far they haven't spoken of takeovers). I'm sure that at times, the warriors of Rakkor descend to the mountain, hearing a good war, and participate there, to prove themselves. If the term 'mercenary' is easier to coin, they'd use that. Rewards and such are more secondary to them, they just live for the moments of war. At least that is what I think of.

Now then, the whole Sun vs Moon thing. I'll just wrap it up in this paragraph:

I didn't say the Solari is only good. I'm just saying like what I said, for every dark/bad side, there always must be light/good side. Meaning: I do not shy away from the thing about Solari wiped out the Lunari. It's still a bad thing. But I just refuse to let it eclipse good points they had, whereas most others would just let that get eclipsed. I will also say that what Diana went through was harsh and worthy of pity. But she's NOT always just the righteous puppy that just needs your cuddling. She feels justified to kill off every Solari members and threatens every other Solari members to submit to the Moon, or get killed by her... but that doesn't make her right, especially when she's carrying it out without remorse. Soooo... she's not a (as I quote) "A cackling evil jackass who just kills for the Moon", but my say is that she has both good points (how she ended up like that) and bad points (how she's carrying out her 'vengeance'). I think that to admire Diana, you have to take both points together (it's just my opinion). It's just that there's so many who'd just take the good points and then whitewash the bad points away. Fandom can be rather shallow, that is something I've learned trudging through various fanbases.

Now when I say all these, I'm not accusing you or anything. You're a writer, you have to use everything that you think will make a good story, it's inevitable that the narrative will side to one side more (I know, because I used to make stories myself, but just considers myself a very sub-par writer). I appreciate all you did to write a story, and I applaud you that you can still make up a great story, even if I don't have time to read it. So, more power to you and please don't take it like I'm accusing you or something.

(And look at the bright side, man. You got more thumbs up in your posts!)


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Whitakker

Senior Member

08-26-2014

Can I just say that this is the kind of discussion I wish this board had more of? This is some quality debate. +1 to all of you.


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maxism07

Member

08-26-2014

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