Amatuer division and Tourney changes

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Volandum

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Where are you going to get these prize pools for your season thing? Riot sponsors bracketed tournaments.


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kirillian

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Actually, what if the amateur bracket didn't provide RP for the time being? At least for starting it up? Perhaps down the road, we could add prizes, but the whole point of the tourny would be to bring new teams in and get them playing against each other. For the new teams, it's a chance to compete and get better. We leave the prizes in DD, but you can compete in the amateur league all you want. Once you win prizes in DD, you are barred from the amateur league as a team (maybe each player is?)...


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konfetarius

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Frankly, any post that forecasts doom and doesn't encourage a pilot program with some or all of these ideas enacted isn't constructive.
Sure it is. I pointed out a crippling flaw, and brilliant minds such as yourself begun considering solutions.
Quote:
This is how I have it working in my mind, and it was a similar system that worked in Counter-Strike back in CAL days. Spreading out the games this way, and making a season champion allows for higher prize pools in the end, and a much more rewarding viewer experience I feel. Allowing VoDs to be made and only requiring a caster for an extended championship.
I am not against multiple leagues. I am against multiple leagues being implemented without a concerted effort by Riot or someone with enough following trying to simultaneously bolster player interest in the tourney.

Like - are you actually going to get enough teams to make this work at current participation/viewership numbers?


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Golly

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
Sure it is. I pointed out a crippling flaw, and brilliant minds such as yourself begun considering solutions.

I am not against multiple leagues. I am against multiple leagues being implemented without a concerted effort by Riot or someone with enough following trying to simultaneously bolster player interest in the tourney.

Like - are you actually going to get enough teams to make this work at current participation/viewership numbers?
It should be able to. New teams crop up every week in DD, but they just dont stick around.

I think if there were an amateur league where they felt like they actually had a chance at winning they would put forth the effort to stick around.

And if a team that had done this over the course of a season, worked on their teamwork and eventually won an amateur league... they would be much better suited going into games against the established teams already in place. I think they probably wouldn't get stomped. They might, but they would be more willing to put in the work to compete because they already have a vested interest.


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Golly

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volandum View Post
Where are you going to get these prize pools for your season thing? Riot sponsors bracketed tournaments.
It's not a stretch asking for riot sponsorship for a league considering the LCS. I'll send out an email though, asking about it.


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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Pardon the bluntness; but I'm getting tired of seeing this thrown out as a repeated argument. (This is not a target at the 'arguers'; but the 'argument' itself.) Thus I'm snipping it in the bud as ruthlessly and effectively as possible.

No one will want to play in the Pro league if they can just play Amateur

I play in DominationDominion for team Domination
I have never won RP from a DD tournament.
I have never even come close to matching the skill level of anyone in the top four teams.
I am a person, I exist; ergo I quantify as 'someone'.
I will still continue to play in the 'Pro Circuit' even if a lower division is created.

Therefore;

The bolded argument, as has been presented in a constant state of 'absolution', is now invalidated.

Now please stop pretending a Rookie Cup is the plague rat that will decimate your society's population.


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LuckoftheD

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Member

04-04-2013

Trivial, tangential, semantic post incoming:

Sakuri! How dare you double up on adverbs in your second sentence. No self-respecting writer can stomach such a stylistic abomination.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Now please stop pretending a Rookie Cup is the plague rat that will decimate your society's population.
For a person arguing against the semantics of one extreme you sure giddily dive into the other.


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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Grammar has never been my strong suit. XP I threw an 'and' in there for ya.

Upon reflection I have one other common argument I'd like to hard-counter; if people will forgive my rolling tirade.

As a top member of Dominate Dominion; I clawed my way into the position I am now by repeatedly getting stomped by the high end teams at the time. I learned that way. Everyone else should learn that way.

I address this because the logic at its core is flawed. Consider for a moment the notion of learning and think of standard education for a moment. There is one simple fact I have to state- You cannot teach a group of people in a singular fashion an expect the same results across the entire group.

Let me make an analogy.

Assume you have 5 people. All of these people are of equal level of intelligence (for the LoL half of the analogy consider intellect to equal mechanical skill).

You place them in a class room and the professor enters. There are three rules to this class' teaching method.

1. A set of notes are written on the board; students are allowed to copy these notes down exactly as they are written and review only them.
2. After a brief study session a test is given out over those notes.
3. For the sake of argument all students must obey the instructions to the letter, with no unintentional variance. (A reflection of DD being the only port of entry into competitive Dominion.)

So the first test goes out and the scores are as follows:

#1: 95%
#2: 85%
#3: 75%
#4: 60%
#5: 50%

Why are the scores so different?

#1 is able to score quite high on the test because the method in which they were taught meshes exactly with how their brain processes information.

#2 scored lower only because the wording choices of the teacher did not click exactly with their understanding of the content. If they had been allowed to paraphrase the notes in a way they could more easily understand the material their score would've been higher.

#3 scored even lower; requiring two sets of information (a textbook with an independent interpretation and their own paraphrased notes) to properly digest the lessons taught to them.

#4 did quite poorly; this student requires visual aid along with written word to fully comprehend the information passed along to him. Without that missing half they never stood a chance.

#5 did the worst of all. This is because this student has an incredible poor memory when it comes to written text but an absolute memory when it comes to sound. If the teacher had read the notes allowed, or had the student been allowed to read the notes themselves; they would've aced it the first go. But with the restrictions in play, they had no ability to perform to their utmost.

Repeat this situation say...5 times and you'll eventually get the following.

#1: 100%
#2: 95%
#3: 85%
#4: 68%
#5: 52%

Basically; those who favor that learning style will advance. Those it runs counter to will languish.

So what is the point of that whole analogy?

People are in effect saying as follows:

There should be no other way of learning Dominion except by repeated stomps.

With that hard restriction in play only groups #1 and #2 are going to stand a chance to advance. #3 might have some hope but you're effectively ostracizing #4 & #5 by refusing to allow them the tools they need to learn.

#4/5 need something besides being 'lawl stomped' for 10 minutes every Saturday.
#4/5 need something besides Kassaspam Solo Q to learn the basics of competitive play (be honest; Solo Q, even at higher levels, plays nothing like DD).
#4/5 need a Rookie Cup to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by konfetarius View Post
For a person arguing against the semantics of one extreme you sure giddily dive into the other.
Equals and opposites. In order to counter a strong argument you need a strong counter-argument. The strength of any point I throw out is in exact proportion to the way it was delivered.

Although to be fair; 'subtle' was never ingrained in my debating styles to begin with. Do keep in mind though I am more than willing to listen to counters. I just don't come off quite as restrictive as I should be due to my writing style.


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konfetarius

Senior Member

04-04-2013

All you had to do was point out the hyperbole and the argument is weakened (until adjusted anyway). Diving further into your own hyperbole was silly.

It doesn't take a decimation to shut down DD. If we assume that the primary motivation for DD participation is the chance of RP prizes (which makes sense), it takes about half the teams being non-masochistic rational actors and going for the games where they at least look like they have a chance of reaching the top 4 spots. For all you know, the learning style of getting stomped fits an extreme minority of players.