Amatuer division and Tourney changes

12345612 ... 14
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DG TheFeedski

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-02-2013

EDIT: Already talked to Fancy, nevermind.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

kirillian

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netorare Man View Post
If speaking like that they are able to pick 2 strong champions,

1 kassadin > wukong + lulu

What if there are no "strong" champions remaining?
What if there is only 1 "strong" champion remaining?
What is a "strong" champion?
This is kinda actually my point. The point of banning is to remove champions from the game that you don't want to deal with. This might be target banning to remove a champion that an opponent is particularly strong with, or it might be removing "OPs" from the game because you feel that the other team getting them will be something your team can't deal with. I kinda feel like the community has, over time, grown to use bans as a type of courtesy almost to both sides. Frankly, I think it would be interesting to see purple side not ban anything "OP" and pick up more "strong" champs that they feel they can synergize well with and leave blue side with the leftovers. This should force blue side to try and expand the champion pool again so that they can build their team despite the non-banned "OPs" and allow some back and forth...of course, this makes the assumption that some champs really are heads and tails stronger than other champs, and while I think certain champs are extremely difficult to deal with, I think we just ban sometimes cuz everyone else is doing it to make up for other faults that our teams have.

Either way, perma-banning Kass I think goes down a road that we shouldn't be going down. It shifts the advantage even more in the direction of purple and puts us in a position where we have to review the permaban status all the time when people start complaining that jayce or pantheon are unfun and should be permabanned too. We can't just say that we'll only permaban Kassadin, because next week, maybe Riot releases Kassadin 2.0.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

kirillian

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DD TheFeedski View Post
Alright so this isn't a rule for DD. I don't know if you meant it as a suggestion, but I haven't talked to anyone about taking things over for me or changing how things are run (I don't mind change at all, but I think someone should talk to me first before the go announcing a change I know nothing about).
I think he meant it as a suggestion


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Golly

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netorare Man View Post
If speaking like that they are able to pick 2 strong champions,

1 kassadin > wukong + lulu

What if there are no "strong" champions remaining?
What if there is only 1 "strong" champion remaining?
What is a "strong" champion?
Except in this case, no one argues that Kassadin shouldn't be a ban on teams. In fact, everyone agrees that if Kass gets through, it's GG.

If that were the case for another champion, then that champion should also be banned.

It's not uncommon for third-party leagues to set up rules restricting things in-game that aren't already restricted. It happens all the time.

I don't think anyone is arguing other champs aren't strong in the mode, but none so much game-breaking as Kassadin. He should be nerfed in the mode, as he is, he doesn't belong. That's why he should be restricted.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Painkillar

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Separating into two brackets is a bad idea, if you want to spare ameteur teams an early stomp just give the top 4 teams a double bye to spare them a first or second round stomp. However, catering to SR teams that think they can come into dom to stomp us for free rp or teams that need more training and giving them prizes over teams that work hard and actually deserve it seems insulting to those teams.

Another thing about an amateur bracket is that if derps only fight derps, they will never learn anything. They need to actually fight against teams that are good and learn from their mistakes and come back better.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Golly

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Painkillar View Post
Separating into two brackets is a bad idea, if you want to spare ameteur teams an early stomp just give the top 4 teams a double bye to spare them a first or second round stomp. However, catering to SR teams that think they can come into dom to stomp us for free rp or teams that need more training and giving them prizes over teams that work hard and actually deserve it seems insulting to those teams.

Another thing about an amateur bracket is that if derps only fight derps, they will never learn anything. They need to actually fight against teams that are good and learn from their mistakes and come back better.
A hundred years of amateur leagues and AAA leagues vs pro leagues disagrees with you. CALeague saw a lot of amateur teams rise through the ranks of the unknown to become amazing teams in Counter-strike.

I think it's a strong argument to move from weekly tournaments to a league format. Where wins/losses are tallied for a total of a season. It would mean a much larger prize pool, and would make for a much more satisfying non-pecs effect.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fancy Wolf

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Painkillar View Post
Separating into two brackets is a bad idea, if you want to spare ameteur teams an early stomp just give the top 4 teams a double bye to spare them a first or second round stomp. However, catering to SR teams that think they can come into dom to stomp us for free rp or teams that need more training and giving them prizes over teams that work hard and actually deserve it seems insulting to those teams.

Another thing about an amateur bracket is that if derps only fight derps, they will never learn anything. They need to actually fight against teams that are good and learn from their mistakes and come back better.
But if a bunch of bads are playing bads eventually they will continue to get better against each other, thus increasing their own skill level. The point in matter is, they are not sitting through stomps. Once they advance to pro cup they will have to step up their game again and again in order to advance through the ranks,

The major problem is getting stomped 400-0 for the new guys,. and saying that we wont cater to the SR kids who think they can come in and wreck things is pretty much saying " I dont care what happens to Dominion anymore I already have my Free RP.". Those SR kids are potential new teams to help Dom grow, and turning them away only hurts us and the mode.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hamm3rhand

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Couple of things, first is the kass ban. Its interesting actually. Our first round last week was versus an SR team. bunch of plat/gold members (they made sure we knew it) and they did in fact ban kassadin. So they knew that he was OP. They did not, however, know that revive was OP, and used that "ghost boots 2 to the windmill to cap it before the other team gets there" strat from the very beginning of dominion (it failed). Thusly, they got stomped. So its clear that its more than just kassadin that is holding these teams back.

i know that there was a lot of top level vs new teams last week, was there any that didn't ban kassadin and used revive? I would be interested in finding out if that happened. I seem to remember seeing a lot of blowouts in the first round anyway so it might not even make that much of a difference.

I think separating into two tournaments is a bad idea simply due to the number of teams. Yes, on occasion we'll have a bunch of teams compete, but lately its been drifting down into the 12-16 team range. If you take out, say, PECS, FTV, enema, Ampu, AE+L? (maybe TSB? as teams that have placed in the past month or two). Then you will probably be flirting with having too few teams to make it a full tourney with riot support. I also don't think we have enough teams to do a proper league format.

I also concur with painkillar's statements.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arcades79

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Painkillar View Post
Separating into two brackets is a bad idea, if you want to spare ameteur teams an early stomp just give the top 4 teams a double bye to spare them a first or second round stomp. However, catering to SR teams that think they can come into dom to stomp us for free rp or teams that need more training and giving them prizes over teams that work hard and actually deserve it seems insulting to those teams.

Another thing about an amateur bracket is that if derps only fight derps, they will never learn anything. They need to actually fight against teams that are good and learn from their mistakes and come back better.
I don't participate in the DD Tournaments, so I can't speak to their growing (?) popularity, but Dominion, as a whole, doesn't seem to be adding to its player base. Que times for blind pick, even during prime time evening hours, are still ridiculous.

I guess it comes down to whether you want the DD Tournament to serve as a weekly stipend for top Dominion players or as a promotional event to attract more players to Dominion.

I'd also argue that new players won't learn a damn thing getting beat down by the best teams. Mid-level players might pick up a trick or two, but those players/teams are already attracted to Dominion. If the DD sponsors don't wish to increase the prize pool to accommodate an amateur division, prize splitting may be the only way to entice brand new teams to make an effort to learn the game mode and partake in the tournaments.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hamm3rhand

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirillian View Post
This is kinda actually my point. The point of banning is to remove champions from the game that you don't want to deal with. This might be target banning to remove a champion that an opponent is particularly strong with, or it might be removing "OPs" from the game because you feel that the other team getting them will be something your team can't deal with. I kinda feel like the community has, over time, grown to use bans as a type of courtesy almost to both sides. Frankly, I think it would be interesting to see purple side not ban anything "OP" and pick up more "strong" champs that they feel they can synergize well with and leave blue side with the leftovers. This should force blue side to try and expand the champion pool again so that they can build their team despite the non-banned "OPs" and allow some back and forth...of course, this makes the assumption that some champs really are heads and tails stronger than other champs, and while I think certain champs are extremely difficult to deal with, I think we just ban sometimes cuz everyone else is doing it to make up for other faults that our teams have.
interestingly, that was actually one of our ideas for a strat against one of the top teams, though i think that we only ever did it once versus enema. We just banned throwaway champs and then grabbed as many OP's as we could. As far as i remember, turned out that cheese was better at their OP's than we were at ours so we still lost haha.


12345612 ... 14