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Amatuer division and Tourney changes

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Painkillar

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Sakuri Ono:
There is. If you lose hard enough the enemy team can have, at the most I've seen, up to a 3 level advantage. That gap in power allows them the ability to free farm and, by and large, free kill unless you catch them in the worst possible position for them to team fight.

It's not as common as SR or TT; but Dom snowballs exist.


lets agree on snowflakes, you get snowflaked to death in dom.


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DSpyder

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Weeks1:
This really sounds to me like a reasonable compromise. Give the top 4 double or triple byes until the tournament grows large and stable enough that there is no fear that a secondary league will cripple it.

I think the question is if we should concern ourselves with the people who can't learn through defeat, or can't figure out for themselves how to get better. I can see how from the point of view of those who do, it seems like a waste of time.


The question then becomes do you want DD to grow or stay the same. If that segment of your possible player pool is large enough, and you choose to ignore it, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.


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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Painkillar:
lets agree on snowflakes, you get snowflaked to death in dom.


XD Snowflakes works for me.


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DSpyder

Senior Member

04-04-2013

On a side:

Why aren't there any interviews of the top teams, after matches, during the tournament stream?
Wouldn't that make it a tad bit more interesting and fill the dead time between matches?


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Sauron

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Well I haven't weighed in to the topic yet. I've been indifferent to the whole subject because the way it has been repeatedly conveyed ("for the children" fallacy) makes it seem shady to the people who have already put in legitimate effort to improving in Dominion. Still, I believe the intent is correct and it is not ulterior motives at work, so I will respond with my thoughts on making this work.

Firstly, messing with DD wouldn't help. While a double-bye or a losers' bracket would help with DD's fairness, it wouldn't help grow it -- this would only serve as a stepping stone. If it were to be a seperate amateur / junior league tournament specifically for entry level people, word would get around pretty quickly. I would expect the same level of fall-off with repeat teams (a top 4 occurs and others quit), but the pool is larger.

I think the best way to go about it would be to schedule a new tournament for Sunday and be upfront in the rules that if a team played in finals of DD the night before, then they aren't seeded in the Sunday tournament even if they are registered for it. Work RP how you see fit, but it has to be less than DD or else the top teams will hypothetically game the system if competition gets too high (none of the current top 4 would do that simply out of integrity, but we won't be around forever).

There is valid concern in this thread that there won't be enough teams and one of the tournaments will defunct, and then the reputation of the remaining one will get screwed. I think to get around this, you must emphasize in your advertisements that it is only if you make it to the finals of DD that weekend that you are restricted from the junior tournament, or that the finalists can participate but must play with a big handicap, or whatever you finally agree on. You want people to sign up for both, so that the ball can get rolling. Ideally you'd want the junior league to be played first to avoid discouraging newbies, but DD is already on a Saturday.

Thing is though, you don't need community validation to get this going. You do need clear rules that account for all possible issues, and some way to manage it while it is running (mobafire probably). Then you can go to Riot and get it started immediately. Naysayers can help a lot with their criticisms pointing out flaws with potential rules before anything makes it to the submission form.

What supporters of this idea need to doing right now is boiling down all the clarifications and agreeing on what makes a valid participant for this tournament. All Riot would see right now is "Hazy rules, arbitrary restrictions, Dominion-playing logicians are crying. Can't support this." For the tournament to be a real thing, the rules need to be fully fleshed out with all case scenarios accounted for. Once you figure out the specifics for participation, then move onto bans and procedure.

Once that is all done, you then have to figure out how you're going to handle the "top 4" issue of your new tournament that will inevitably happen over and over, but remember that all measurement of "skill" is going to be arbitrary and regarded as unfair. You'll have to handle this somehow using placements or registration, and it needs to be figured out in the rules before you submit the tournament.

...

It's a do-or-die sort of thing; it'll either work and open up more opportunities or it'll outright kill competitive Dominion for a month or two. Some people prefer to walk the safe path, some prefer to live fast and dangerous, and all would prefer if Riot would grow the f*** up in relation to its sub-modes so that we wouldn't even have this problem in the first place.

It's OK though; if it comes crashing down I'll just start a game of Civilization or something, and name the players after Dom teams. lol +5 killed by barbarians, AP Trondomar too stronk.


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FatMii

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Amateur league is the dumbest idea I've ever heard and I will in no way support it. Why? It is giving less fortunate people a chance for RP and Triumphant Ryze when they clearly don't deserve it. I wouldn't be surprised if I get hammered by a bunch of downvotes with this post by whatever. There are just way too many flaws to even run an amateur league. It is too difficult to determine who is eligible and who is not. Take my new team as an example, would we be eligible for the amateur DD or not? We are clearly a new team with 3 brand new players entering the realm of DD and two of my players are completely brand new to Dominion. A lot of good points is mentioned by Sauron why an amateur league wouldn't work. To top it all off, we don't see SR players asking for an bronze player league so why should Dominion have one. Go4LoL is considered amateur but I think most of the winning teams are diamond league or platinum league players anyways but we don't see SR players asking for a Bronze player league and if there were one, I'm pretty sure most of the community would be offended especially Silver league players. Unless if you want to use DD as an advertising tool for Dominion, it needs Riot's support to first create a Dominion tutorial because most players don't even know how to play Dominion and it is clearly evident by LoLKing Stats.

I think this all boils down to the lack of players in DominateDominion. If you look at DominateTwistedTreeline it is a different story but I wouldn't be surprised if Sam's team started taking the first spot ever week because it clearly shows they are ahead of the pack. The difference with DominateTT as opposed to DD is the amount of players who play Twisted Treeline as opposed to Dominion. If I look over the Mobafire brackets for DTT, I can easily name which teams have a chance of getting top 4 and trust me it is more than 6 currently in DD though I'm not sure if I should consider my team as part of the 6 to make it 7 or not because I've only played in two DD and once we got stomped by PECS and other was a close loss against Cheese Enema due to miss communication on my team's part. To make it worse, the top two spots are secured by FTV and PECS.

One main reason why Dominion suffers from lack of good players is because only "bad players" play Dominion. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you look at the top 3 teams, most of the players were around since the inception of Dominion. Those players are the good players that stuck around and played Dominion until today. Any new players entering Dominion are most likely be the players that are bad at SR and I'm part of that group. I admit I can't achieve Diamond league of Challenger Tier which is why I spend the majority of my time on Dominion. For hell, just look at the casted games and you can easily tell the players are better just by their Platinum summoner border. Another interesting thing to note is the lack of people with Diamond borders playing in DD though most of these are obtained from playing Twisted Treeline. If I'm correct, Buwberry is the only legitimate solo queue diamond player in DD currently?

Let's all be honest here, Dominion requires the least amount of mechanical skills to be good which is why it is infested by lower elo players. Mechanical skills still matter to a certain extent which is why FTV, PECS and NMUH are able to consistently take third spot. How are newer players expected to take Dominion seriously when the normal queue ladder is easily abusable with OP champion and there are a lack of players and teams to scrim with? TT also suffers from the same problems except there is a ranked ladder where you can use to practice though the 20-30 minute queue times are quite problematic.

tl;dr Amateur Dominion League is a stupid idea and the main problem is a lack of Dominion players due to non competitiveness from an easily exploitable elo ladder and minimal mechanical skills required to play Dominion.

Edit: People leave DD after getting stomped because they realize there is no chance for winning RP. It is completely normal because if you play in a tournament and you don't win anything, it is a waste of time unless if you play just for fun but it is still a waste of time.

Edit2: HOORAY FOR DOWNVOTES


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AlphaFerric

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
FatMii:

I think this all boils down to the lack of players in DominateDominion. If you look at DominateTwistedTreeline it is a different story but I wouldn't be surprised if Sam's team started taking the first spot ever week because it clearly shows they are ahead of the pack. The difference with DominateTT as opposed to DD is the amount of players who play Twisted Treeline as opposed to Dominion. If I look over the Mobafire brackets for DTT, I can easily name which teams have a chance of getting top 4 and trust me it is more than 6 currently in DD though I'm not sure if I should consider my team as part of the 6 to make it 7 or not because I've only played in two DD and once we got stomped by PECS and other was a close loss against Cheese Enema due to miss communication on my team's part. To make it worse, the top two spots are secured by FTV and PECS.


You're saying a lack of players in DD is the real problem, and Fancy's idea is to bring in more in via a new tournament that would effectively make entrance onto the scene somewhat easier. Unless I've misunderstood something, that's his main goal with it.

Quote:
FatMii:

One main reason why Dominion suffers from lack of good players is because only "bad players" play Dominion. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you look at the top 3 teams, most of the players were around since the inception of Dominion. Those players are the good players that stuck around and played Dominion until today.

Any new players entering Dominion are most likely be the players that are bad at SR and I'm part of that group. I admit I can't achieve Diamond league of Challenger Tier which is why I spend the majority of my time on Dominion. For hell, just look at the casted games and you can easily tell the players are better just by their Platinum summoner border. Another interesting thing to note is the lack of people with Diamond borders playing in DD though most of these are obtained from playing Twisted Treeline. If I'm correct, Buwberry is the only legitimate solo queue diamond player in DD currently?

Let's all be honest here, Dominion requires the least amount of mechanical skills to be good which is why it is infested by lower elo players. Mechanical skills still matter to a certain extent which is why FTV, PECS and NMUH are able to consistently take third spot. How are newer players expected to take Dominion seriously when the normal queue ladder is easily abusable with OP champion and there are a lack of players and teams to scrim with? TT also suffers from the same problems except there is a ranked ladder where you can use to practice though the 20-30 minute queue times are quite problematic.


Just going to throw this out there, but not enjoying cs'ing for 20 minutes does not mean you have bad mechanics, and coming to Dominion for that reason does not make anyone a bad player. The idea that you even bring up mechanics is amazing. What mechanics? Positioning? Not focusing tanks? Map awareness and timers? If you are good at Dom, you have all of these "mechanical" skills and can carry yourself pretty damn far. The argument you make for not having enough teams to scrim with is just jumping into a catch22. Not enough teams to practice with?, better not look for new ways to add new teams. As for the ladder, being abuseable, that's in Riot's hands atm and has no relevance to Fancy's proposal.

Your reverence for high elo SR players is pretty funny as well. Pro teams got stomped in DD. If they came back they would get stomped again, and it wouldn't require the top 3 to do it.

Fancy, if you get it off the ground, count me in. I've got nothing against a new tournament starting up, and if it means new teams will eventually make their way into the DD arena with more success then I am all for that too. If you need any help getting it off the ground let me know.


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Fancy Wolf

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
FatMii:
Amateur league is the dumbest idea I've ever heard and I will in no way support it.



I dont even wanna touch this post..... guess what the SR equivalent to DD is? LCS. You know what their amateur league division is? Go4LoL and more amateur tourneys popping up everywhere.

Also... I brought up my teams total dominion wins before in an earlier post. but were still top 4...

ELO and MMR means **** if you know how to play the game.... and ELO doesn't mean anything in a tournament setting. your a solo Q god? good now learn teamwork or else throw the game for your team


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Orphane

Senior Member

04-04-2013

One thing I have to point out, Fancy, is that if you really want to push this forward a big step would be to start formatting and typing up your posts correctly. You're perfectly articulate on your stream; there's a time and place for "lol dis guy..." and repeated exclamation points. Nobody wants to read warmeat's posts on this forum for a reason.


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FatMii

Senior Member

04-05-2013

Quote:
Fancy Wolf:
I dont even wanna touch this post..... guess what the SR equivalent to DD is? LCS. You know what their amateur league division is? Go4LoL and more amateur tourneys popping up everywhere.

Also... I brought up my teams total dominion wins before in an earlier post. but were still top 4...

ELO and MMR means **** if you know how to play the game.... and ELO doesn't mean anything in a tournament setting. your a solo Q god? good now learn teamwork or else throw the game for your team


BTW I mentioned Go4LoL but it is still a plat/diamond league player tourney. If you start something new on DD, it feels more like bronze player league. That is how i feel personally. The idea of restricting the top players entering Amateur DD is basically calling it just that. I'm not familiar with the Go4LoL scene so I don't know what really happens there but would be bizarre for example a LAN tourney to ban top Go4LoL teams.