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Amatuer division and Tourney changes

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DSpyder

Senior Member

04-04-2013

What was the original purpose of DD? The intent on starting it?


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Painkillar

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Sakuri Ono:
Grammar has never been my strong suit. XP I threw an 'and' in there for ya.

Upon reflection I have one other common argument I'd like to hard-counter; if people will forgive my rolling tirade.

As a top member of Dominate Dominion; I clawed my way into the position I am now by repeatedly getting stomped by the high end teams at the time. I learned that way. Everyone else should learn that way.

I address this because the logic at its core is flawed. Consider for a moment the notion of learning and think of standard education for a moment. There is one simple fact I have to state- You cannot teach a group of people in a singular fashion an expect the same results across the entire group.

Let me make an analogy.

Assume you have 5 people. All of these people are of equal level of intelligence (for the LoL half of the analogy consider intellect to equal mechanical skill).

You place them in a class room and the professor enters. There are three rules to this class' teaching method.

1. A set of notes are written on the board; students are allowed to copy these notes down exactly as they are written and review only them.
2. After a brief study session a test is given out over those notes.
3. For the sake of argument all students must obey the instructions to the letter, with no unintentional variance. (A reflection of DD being the only port of entry into competitive Dominion.)

So the first test goes out and the scores are as follows:

#1: 95%
#2: 85%
#3: 75%
#4: 60%
#5: 50%

Why are the scores so different?

#1 is able to score quite high on the test because the method in which they were taught meshes exactly with how their brain processes information.

#2 scored lower only because the wording choices of the teacher did not click exactly with their understanding of the content. If they had been allowed to paraphrase the notes in a way they could more easily understand the material their score would've been higher.

#3 scored even lower; requiring two sets of information (a textbook with an independent interpretation and their own paraphrased notes) to properly digest the lessons taught to them.

#4 did quite poorly; this student requires visual aid along with written word to fully comprehend the information passed along to him. Without that missing half they never stood a chance.

#5 did the worst of all. This is because this student has an incredible poor memory when it comes to written text but an absolute memory when it comes to sound. If the teacher had read the notes allowed, or had the student been allowed to read the notes themselves; they would've aced it the first go. But with the restrictions in play, they had no ability to perform to their utmost.

Repeat this situation say...5 times and you'll eventually get the following.

#1: 100%
#2: 95%
#3: 85%
#4: 68%
#5: 52%

Basically; those who favor that learning style will advance. Those it runs counter to will languish.

So what is the point of that whole analogy?

People are in effect saying as follows:

There should be no other way of learning Dominion except by repeated stomps.

With that hard restriction in play only groups #1 and #2 are going to stand a chance to advance. #3 might have some hope but you're effectively ostracizing #4 & #5 by refusing to allow them the tools they need to learn.

#4/5 need something besides being 'lawl stomped' for 10 minutes every Saturday.
#4/5 need something besides Kassaspam Solo Q to learn the basics of competitive play (be honest; Solo Q, even at higher levels, plays nothing like DD).
#4/5 need a Rookie Cup to learn.



Equals and opposites. In order to counter a strong argument you need a strong counter-argument. The strength of any point I throw out is in exact proportion to the way it was delivered.

Although to be fair; 'subtle' was never ingrained in my debating styles to begin with. Do keep in mind though I am more than willing to listen to counters. I just don't come off quite as restrictive as I should be due to my writing style.


I think your confusing test and classroom. To use your analogy, DDT is not the classroom where you learn or the teacher you're learning from, it's the test.

In other words, you go into the DD Tourney and "take the test" so to speak, then you see how you scored and reflect what you can do to get better. Once you find what you did wrong you go into Solo Q and improve your mechanics and learn new champions to create more comps; or if it's a tactical issue that made you lose, see what you did wrong and figure out how you can counter the enemies strategy next time. Or to use your analogy, you see what answers you got wrong and then you do your research to correct your mistakes.

Basically what you're suggesting is that we make the test easier for other teams, and to add insult to injury, reward them for it over teams that scored higher marks.

The hard line is though, if you can't take a loss and learn from it, then you should not compete. Pecs learned 40x more from our loses and from brutally being pit against Sauron's Point Defense week after week when we were in our infancy then we have in all of the weeks we've won tourneys combined. It was actually exciting (after the frustration) getting beat by Cheeze Enema a couple weeks ago due to the fact that we could learn new things from their unusual strategies they employed and come up with counters to them.

But i digress. All in all, a new tourney has a high chance of cannibalizing from the dd tourney and setting up a split tourney would reward those who are less deserving.

We need to figure out what we can do to help the current tourney. Right now the reddits and other forms of social media seem to work pretty well. We need to explore more of these avenues as well as start getting our guides, streams and meta's to reach people. I've been slowly compiling a list of links to dominion resources instead of having everything scattered everywhere all over the forums and other websites which makes them annoying to find http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3275691&highlight=painkillar.

For the problem of new teams getting stomped by top teams in the first rounds, that's easily solvable by giving top teams a double or triple bye. Most of us top teams find stomping low elo teams to be a waste of time anyway. This way they get the satisfaction of showing that they progressed a couple rounds, get to learn from playing against a team with knowhow, doesn't steal rewards from more deserving teams, and doesn't run the risk of cannibalizing from the tourney. It's a giant win with no risk.

There's a lot of things that can be done to help the dom and the tourney, however there are better ways to go about it than just ripping apart the tourney and hoping the pieces fall neatly together.


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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Painkillar:

In other words, you go into the DD Tourney and "take the test" so to speak, then you see how you scored and reflect what you can do to get better. Once you find what you did wrong you go into Solo Q and improve your mechanics and learn new champions to create more comps; or if it's a tactical issue that made you lose, see what you did wrong and figure out how you can counter the enemies strategy next time. Or to use your analogy, you see what answers you got wrong and then you do your research to correct your mistakes.


Problem I have with that logic line (which I addressed in my post but only ever so lightly): Solo Q does nothing to prep you for DD.

Teamfighting in SQ vs DD is night and day. 'Studying' in SQ is basically trying to memorize a French handbook to ace your Spanish quiz.

If you've gotten to that top X% in SQ's matchmaking it might not seem like it (due to the smaller player pool) but for the majority of the Dominion community these two environments might as well be separate game modes. The methods and strategies used are vastly different (due to things you never see in DD's non-stomps; like Kassadin, rolling Windmill rushes, ect.). If anything Solo Q just teaches you bad habits you have to break by playing DD. But you don't get a chance to learn to break those if your game is decided in the first 7 minutes (snowball stomps).

Edit: I didn't see the part about giving tops a double and triple bye. That 'kinda' works. Except I'm pretty sure mid-teams can also auto stomp the new players. Not enough to declare it in absolution but I'd place a bet on it.


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Volandum

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Try saying "the absolute" rather than "absolution".

I dunno, why would people not high on matchmaking think they are good at dominion? If you don't think blind queue is good practice, work on populating draft and running inhouses.

And Fancy, see my link, go get your sponsorship. Find a DD streamer willing to stream it, and you can get your tournament DD viewership. Just do.


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Painkillar

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Sakuri Ono:
Problem I have with that logic line (which I addressed in my post but only ever so lightly): Solo Q does nothing to prep you for DD.

Teamfighting in SQ vs DD is night and day. 'Studying' in SQ is basically trying to memorize a French handbook to ace your Spanish quiz.

If you've gotten to that top X% in SQ's matchmaking it might not seem like it (due to the smaller player pool) but for the majority of the Dominion community these two environments might as well be separate game modes. The methods and strategies used are vastly different (due to things you never see in DD's non-stomps; like Kassadin, rolling Windmill rushes, ect.). If anything Solo Q just teaches you bad habits you have to break by playing DD. But you don't get a chance to learn to break those if your game is decided in the first 7 minutes (snowball stomps).

Edit: I didn't see the part about giving tops a double and triple bye. That 'kinda' works. Except I'm pretty sure mid-teams can also auto stomp the new players. Not enough to declare it in absolution but I'd place a bet on it.


Solo q is meant to teach you mechanics, learn new champions, learn how to build correctly, and pick up on new/basic strategies. If a team gets stomped that hard usually it's because they are all lacking in all of those areas as well as never practiced as a team. All of those can be remedied through solo q and/or watching previous tourneys.

Also, it seems that every good dominion team is either a magician by pretending they have a french notebook that's really spanish. Or we are a new bread of super people that can learn two languages for the price of one.

Either that or we figured ways to better our weaknesses and continually evolve as compared to making excuses and complaining.

Edit: there is no such thing as snowball on dominion


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Fancy Wolf

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Volandum:


I dunno, why would people not high on matchmaking think they are good at dominion? If you don't think blind queue is good practice, work on populating draft and running inhouses.



Because you cant hard carry dominion like you can in SR, I could go bot/top/mid in SR go 5/0 and start rolling the game, I could qudra first windmill fight then another immediately after and we could still lose the game from simple things such as re spawn mechanics, and or champ picks.

I dont even use Solo Q as a means to check my MMR or ELO I use it to work on my individual skill and mechanics with champions, there is absolutely no point in trying to judge player skill from MMR. Have you check my Dom wins btw? Loli's? I believe weasel has the highest amount on the team, It doesnt mean we cant keep up in a tournament situation though, We've brought PECS down to ~120 a few times and have taken a game off cheese in the Bo3. Did MMR need to be taken into account? last time we got PECS so low panz was pretty ecstatic that we were actually another challenging team, and cam was even surprised at how well we held up against them. I dont think 2 top players who have been podium finish would begin to question MMR or ELO after seeing the games that happened.

We know the issue with draft,and inhouses work! Im actually planning on trying to run alot more soon.


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LuckoftheD

Member

04-04-2013

Bot Vola, here I was thinking Sakuri might in secret be a Taoist or Buddhist monk who can, with his long practiced austerities and self-cultivation - in short, the way - forgive us fallible mortals for our sins and trangressions, and in that forgiveness we would be truly absolved!

;p

On a more serious note, I'm mostly for a paradigm shift for DD and seeing how we can increase participation, exposure, and the total players in its community over time.


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DSpyder

Senior Member

04-04-2013

No. Different people learn differently. So while you may lose and learn from it, others will not. Others may have to do something else to learn the same lessons. Not everyone learns from defeat.

You can not argue that any new team (with new players/teammates) coming into the DD now doesn't have to learn the basics that Dom rank/draft would teach them.

Since draft is rarely used and there is no ranked, an amateur tournament would help alleviate this.

The less deserving...If you win that tournament that wouldn't you be deserving of it's prize?

Too many of you latch on to one problem that is effecting DD, not understanding that their are several issues that must be addressed in order for it to grow. Not just the one problem you are focused on.


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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Painkillar:


Edit: there is no such thing as snowball on dominion


There is. If you lose hard enough the enemy team can have, at the most I've seen, up to a 3 level advantage. That gap in power allows them the ability to free farm and, by and large, free kill unless you catch them in the worst possible position for them to team fight.

It's not as common as SR or TT; but Dom snowballs exist.


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Weeks1

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Painkillar:
For the problem of new teams getting stomped by top teams in the first rounds, that's easily solvable by giving top teams a double or triple bye. Most of us top teams find stomping low elo teams to be a waste of time anyway. This way they get the satisfaction of showing that they progressed a couple rounds, get to learn from playing against a team with knowhow, doesn't steal rewards from more deserving teams, and doesn't run the risk of cannibalizing from the tourney. It's a giant win with no risk.
This really sounds to me like a reasonable compromise. Give the top 4 double or triple byes until the tournament grows large and stable enough that there is no fear that a secondary league will cripple it.

Quote:
DSpyder:
You can not argue that any new team (with new players/teammates) coming into the DD now doesn't have to learn the basics that Dom rank/draft would teach them.
I think the question is if we should concern ourselves with the people who can't learn through defeat, or can't figure out for themselves how to get better. I can see how from the point of view of those who do, it seems like a waste of time.