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Heim vs xin help

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LrdVprScrpn

Senior Member

04-05-2013

Quote:
Theungry:


I was specifically applying a metaphorical litmus test to see if you recognized Bayesian inference since you claimed a background in math and science.


You realize this is the Internet right? Anyone who can manage to mash their forehead into the keyboard can look up "Bayesian" and get a decent grasp of the concepts.

You'd better keep that toothbrush locked up tight; I just had an egg salad sandwich and it's doing some strange things deep inside me.


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Kalarepa

Senior Member

04-05-2013

Quote:
Theungry:

Edit- to answer a direct question, as i have said and will say again, I think Heimer is pretty good. When working with his team smartly he's a strong asset. I just don't think he is god tier because while his turrets have enhanced value on the narrow map, he's still quite dependent on them for his full utility and they can and will be worked around/taken down neutering Heimer for up to 20+ seconds. Also his skill shot is pretty slow traveling and easy to avoid. It has a lot of power in skilled hands, but it stands a little below some other skill shots in my estimation that are easier to land as an engage and therefore have both early offensive and defensive utility. The trade-off is that it's an AoE stun, so there are clearly grades of subtlety there, but you're asking for my opinion, which I appreciate, so there it is.

Again, you're focusing on Heim's turrets and grenade, while ignoring his strongest spell - rockets.

Heimer's rockets are really, really powerful harassing tool for ARAM. And do you know, why? Because you can't dodge them. People are saying, Nidalee's spear is OP - but hey, you don't land 10/10 spears, do you? You probably land like 2-3/10, unless you play vs bad enemies.
Heimer's rockets are probably the longest range non-skillshot poke spell in game. They also hit 3 targets and deal pretty decent damage. It's insanely effective, even if it doesn't look that awesome on paper.
On top of that, he's destroying towers EXTREMELY fast. If you've lost a team fight and enemy Heimer is alive, you can say "good bye" to your tower.
On top of that, he's got AoE CC/blind and a slow.
On top of that, his passive brings extra sustainabilty.
On top of that, he's immune to single target skillshots, like Nidalee's spear, if he can hide behind his turret.
On top of that, he can control brush/relics by placing turret there.

Btw, your biggest complains are, that turrets are easy to kill and grenade is hard to land. Well, do you know when it's very easy to land grenade on your enemies? When they're trying to destroy your turrets. Bam, your both weaknesses are gone.


Btw, if you think, that Heimer isn't one of the best heroes for this map, then who is?


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Theungry

Senior Member

04-05-2013

Let me try:

So here's what happened:
1. Someone said Heimer was one of the top 2 ARAM champions
2. I said no, he is pretty good, but more of a pubstomp than god tier
3. Circumstantial evidence is provided that suggests the original claim
4. I critique the validity of the evidence
5. The data is restated without any logic supporting it's validity besides a really bad analogy, and no effort is made to respond to the substance of the critique.
6. I start receiving ad hominem attacks instead of substantive responses.
7. I critique the validity of the evidence and have fun with the rant of an obvious troll.
7. Eveyone ignores what my claim actually is, and the logic upon which i base my alanlysis.
8. I restate my position again
9. everyone keeps arguing with the straw man in the corner instead of me.

I can respect the opinion that Heimer is god tier. I just contend it's an opinion, not a fact. Is that really that upsetting?


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Theungry

Senior Member

04-05-2013

Quote:
LrdVprScrpn:
You realize this is the Internet right? Anyone who can manage to mash their forehead into the keyboard can look up "Bayesian" and get a decent grasp of the concepts.


Yeah, but if anyone else posting had a decent grasp of Byaesian inference, they would have either understood me or challenged me in a substantive way a long time ago, hence why I applied said litmus test to see if someone making a claim of expertise on the internet could actually.. you know... demonstrate a modicum of expertise.

Quote:
LrdVprScrpn:

You'd better keep that toothbrush locked up tight; I just had an egg salad sandwich and it's doing some strange things deep inside me.


I will admit to a small amount of schadenfreude related to your intestinal distress.


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Theungry

Senior Member

04-05-2013

Quote:
Kalarepa:
Again, you're focusing on Heim's turrets and grenade, while ignoring his strongest spell - rockets.



Ironically you missed this part of the very post you quoted:

Quote:
Theungry:

The argument for pushing ability, rockets, team regen I can respect, and the distinction in our views is the value we assign to those elements.


Edit - The champs I personally see on the highest tier are: Sona, Fiddlesticks, Amumu, Zyra, Ziggs, Jayce, Karthus, Lux, TF.

I think team comps really need AD carries too, though i don't think the distinctions are quite as sharp i tend to list Twitch, Varus, Cait and Tristana as my top ARAM ADs.

I group Heimer with champs like Nid and Blitz that have a lot of power, but that power is based on other people making some mistakes. I don't think that means they aren't very powerful or strong. I just personally put more value in champions that are less subject to opponent's skill variance. I respect your opinion and reasoning for Heimer's strength. I just don't value his strengths the same way in my list.


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FDru

Senior Member

04-05-2013

Heimer is pretty awful as far as mages go. A pubstomp champ if there ever was one. He is nearly useless in an unbalanced comp, since he brings very little to a team. If, theoretically, you were trying to form a competitive high-end team, Heimer would never be picked on it.

But noobs simply cannot comprehend what the **** to do about his turrets and they get owned. Therefore: omg win rate. It's the same way in Dominion, except there Heimer is literally one of the worst champs on the map, but still has one of the highest win rates.

Win rate statistics are much more interesting when you get to see what they are at all levels of play. That's why lolking is pretty useless for Proving Grounds. Judging a champ based on how they perform against the majority casual (read: terrible) crowd is silly and pointless.


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Null Signature

Senior Member

04-05-2013

So Heimer is simultaneously the best and worst champion in ARAM.

Got it.