Heim vs xin help

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Theungry

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Senior Member

04-02-2013

Sorry. Lolking win rates are not a useful source of qualitative data. They are more a reflection of what has or hasn't had a free week recently (free week = win rate drop) than objective strength.

I care a lot more about what a champion is capable against a quality opponent than against a mouth-breathing window-licker. Heimer's value drops radically against an opponent who has good position and timing.


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Kalarepa

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theungry View Post
Sorry. Lolking win rates are not a useful source of qualitative data. They are more a reflection of what has or hasn't had a free week recently (free week = win rate drop) than objective strength.

I care a lot more about what a champion is capable against a quality opponent than against a mouth-breathing window-licker. Heimer's value drops radically against an opponent who has good position and timing.

Actually, you're wrong. Heimer and Sona permanently keep their top 2 places with 60-67% win ratio since the begining of PG. They're just ridiculously strong on this map, it has nothing to do with free week heroes.


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LrdVprScrpn

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theungry View Post
Sorry. Lolking win rates are not a useful source of qualitative data. They are more a reflection of what has or hasn't had a free week recently (free week = win rate drop) than objective strength.

I care a lot more about what a champion is capable against a quality opponent than against a mouth-breathing window-licker. Heimer's value drops radically against an opponent who has good position and timing.

Sorry. You're incorrect. Heimer is consistently in the top regardless of who is free. Lolking data goes back a month, and Heimer is always 1, 2, or 3. Would you use the same argument to say that Sona is not a good champion for ARAM?

For your 2nd point, can you name some champs who are unaffected by the skill of their opponent? Does there exist a champon where the positioning and timing of his foes are of no concern?


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Theungry

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Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LrdVprScrpn View Post
Sorry. You're incorrect. Heimer is consistently in the top regardless of who is free. Lolking data goes back a month, and Heimer is always 1, 2, or 3. Would you use the same argument to say that Sona is not a good champion for ARAM?
I don't spend a lot of time analyzing lolking stats, so beyond a month past, I don't really have any data. I wouldn't make that argument for Sona because what she provides is very consistent, and doesn't require fixed positon turrets or slow skill shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LrdVprScrpn View Post
For your 2nd point, can you name some champs who are unaffected by the skill of their opponent? Does there exist a champion where the positioning and timing of his foes are of no concern?
Sure, that's pretty easy, but first let me clarify something; you've flipped the causality in your question so let me un-flip it. "Is there a champion who is harder to to beat with positioning and timing than Heimer". The answer is overwhelmingly yes. Most any mage with a strong engage and targeted abilities is harder to beat with positioning and timing than Heimer.

I think there are two big factors going on in our disagreement here.

1) The difference between objective power and subjective power
2) The value of lolking as a data source.

This is not surprising as the two are highly related.

1) What I mean by objective power is: a complete kit that all things being equal/played "correctly" tends to be more effective than others.
What I mean by subjective power is: a kit that succeeds commonly because opponents make common avoidable mistakes.

In the case of Heimer (and a many other champs to be honest), what will often happen in an ARAM is that people will play against him very poorly because they don't communicate as a team, and get taken advantage of badly by engaging within range of his turrets and not taking out his turrets when they can.

It's a similar phenomenon to the typical GD forum pub stomp complaints. Akali and Darius pub stomp like fiends, because they punish ignorance quite hard, but really they are rather non-threatening to an experienced opponent. Heimer has an enhanced version of this going on in ARAM where there is no MMR so you almost always have one person on your team who's too impatient and engages in range of turret to get his armor shredded and his life bar blanked.

A good team wouldn't just let Heimer establish forward turrets and fight in turret range. They use what zone control they have to let their ADC take out turrets or wait to hard engage away from his turrets altogether.

So yeah, if you draw Heimer on ARAM, you can rejoice that your win probability is high, but it's not because Heimer is god mode OP. It's because until Howling Abyss you have a really high chance of facing bads, and Heimer on a condensed map punishes bads REALLY hard.

Once we have MMR for ARAM, like any other pubstomp champ, Heimer will trail off sharly as you rise in rank.


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Zupekadia

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Heimer is very good in ARAM. You might want to consider getting Zhonya's Hourglass vs Xin. Not only do you get AP and a decent amount of armor to protect you, which can be maxed out by Heimer fairly easily, but if that Xin gets through your teammates and is headed straight to you, you can use Zhonya's active to go temporarily invincible and hopefully your teammates can peel him off of you. For extra effect, you can cast your ult before using Zhonya's so that your little turrets can do extra damage on him.


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Kalarepa

Senior Member

04-03-2013

You guys are ignoring Heimer's strongest spell for ARAM - rockets. You should always max them first and get some flat magic penetration with enough mana regen to spam spells 24/7. They're ridiculously strong at poking. Just use your grenade+turret to clear creeps fast, walk in, cast rockets, walk out. They can't dodge it, they can't catch you, because rockets have too high range.
If they're trying to engage on you, use ult, throw grenade at them, send even more rockets and run to your slowing turrets.
Once they're low enough, your team will probably tower dive - but you shouldn't care about it. When everyone else are busy at fighting - you place turrets and eat their tower/inhibitor/nexus.

Heimer is one of the most broken heroes (if not the most broken) for ARAM. You just have to use him properly, which isn't that hard.


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Tim Allen Talon

Senior Member

04-03-2013

(assuming you haven't placed both your turrets some where else)

When Xin charges at you

drop your grenade rate on his face

place down your turrets and ulti

???

profit


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LrdVprScrpn

Senior Member

04-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theungry View Post
I don't spend a lot of time analyzing lolking stats, so beyond a month past, I don't really have any data. I wouldn't make that argument for Sona because what she provides is very consistent, and doesn't require fixed positon turrets or slow skill shots.



Sure, that's pretty easy, but first let me clarify something; you've flipped the causality in your question so let me un-flip it. "Is there a champion who is harder to to beat with positioning and timing than Heimer". The answer is overwhelmingly yes. Most any mage with a strong engage and targeted abilities is harder to beat with positioning and timing than Heimer.

I think there are two big factors going on in our disagreement here.

1) The difference between objective power and subjective power
2) The value of lolking as a data source.

This is not surprising as the two are highly related.

1) What I mean by objective power is: a complete kit that all things being equal/played "correctly" tends to be more effective than others.
What I mean by subjective power is: a kit that succeeds commonly because opponents make common avoidable mistakes.

In the case of Heimer (and a many other champs to be honest), what will often happen in an ARAM is that people will play against him very poorly because they don't communicate as a team, and get taken advantage of badly by engaging within range of his turrets and not taking out his turrets when they can.

It's a similar phenomenon to the typical GD forum pub stomp complaints. Akali and Darius pub stomp like fiends, because they punish ignorance quite hard, but really they are rather non-threatening to an experienced opponent. Heimer has an enhanced version of this going on in ARAM where there is no MMR so you almost always have one person on your team who's too impatient and engages in range of turret to get his armor shredded and his life bar blanked.

A good team wouldn't just let Heimer establish forward turrets and fight in turret range. They use what zone control they have to let their ADC take out turrets or wait to hard engage away from his turrets altogether.

So yeah, if you draw Heimer on ARAM, you can rejoice that your win probability is high, but it's not because Heimer is god mode OP. It's because until Howling Abyss you have a really high chance of facing bads, and Heimer on a condensed map punishes bads REALLY hard.

Once we have MMR for ARAM, like any other pubstomp champ, Heimer will trail off sharly as you rise in rank.
It's amazing that you quoted my question, tried to rephrase it to fit your needs, yet still didn't list a champion that is unaffected by the skill and positioning of their opponent.

This discussion is about ARAM, and in ARAM the particular set of skills that Heimer brings to the table are powerful. His rockets have extremely long range, he has an AOE blind/stun, and he can spam skillshot-blocking turrets in the middle of a fight that shred MR/Armor while permaslowing their targets. On top of this, he has a powerful team/heal aura that mitigates damage taken throughout the game.

Stats do not lie. 60,000+ games are a large enough sample to conclude definitively that he is one of the strongest, if not THE strongest, assets on an ARAM team. It's not opinion; it's not paragraph after paragraph of hypothetical situations regarding highly skilled opponents; it's science.


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Theungry

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Senior Member

04-04-2013

Okay, if you need me to be specific on champs. a short list: Lux, TF, Ziggs, Fiddlesticks.

TF and Fidd negate skill to an extant by having a Targettable hard CC that dictates the shape of an engagement when you get in range very sharply. You can't bait and dodge it, so your options to apply skill to counter it are much more limited.

I list Lux and Ziggs because similar to Heimer they rely heavily on zone control rather than targettable spells, but the advantage in the skillcap counter they have is twofold: 1) they can execute a full combo anywhere at anytime and 2) they can be either proactive or reactive. That means a skilled opponent has much less fixed information about how a fight will go than s/he does against heimer.

I didn't go there last post, because it's almost totally irrelevant to the larger point to have a specific example as it's just a rhetorical gimmick to enable semantic slap fighting.

The most telling thing in all your posts is this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LrdVprScrpn View Post
Stats do not lie.
This is just comically ignorant. I'm going to take it as a given you have no background in math or science (because your last paragraph proved you do not), and say it this way: Even advanced researchers can be easily fooled into a false conclusion by data from studies THEY designed because they did not consider a subtle factor that skewed the entire meaning of the data set.


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Theungry

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Senior Member

04-04-2013

I'm going to take a different tack and try to approach this on your windward side.

Can you admit that pubstomp champs are a thing?

meaning: champs that are great at steamrolling noobs in solo queue that have limited value against organized/quality opponents.