Karma is just BORING.

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LancerXXX

Senior Member

03-31-2013

I'll take RiotSchmick's advice and post this here, even though I know Rioters never check this section of the forum (probably for good reason).

Before I begin, this is what old Karma was to me:
http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=...ma-build-guide

Old Karma was stronger than new Karma. That much is obvious, due to the higher shield, more Mantra stacks, on-demand heal, stronger baiting etc. But what I'm arguing is that her kit is stale.
Before, she was unique. Her fans, despite not being a significant part of her gameplay, made her recognisable. It has been said that now she just feels like a weaker Lux. Her R>E was iconic, and hugely powerful, especially with her passive. That may have been counter-intuitive in conjunction with the visual design, but I see no reason for her kit to change so drastically. Her 6 level abilities made her unique.

Before the remake, Karma had a niche as a dominant top laner - think Yorick. Her R>E allowed her to out-trade pretty much everyone, and the 2 Mantra stacks let her do it constantly. So what did the changes do? They ruined this niche (which by the way was really fun), just to make her a stronger mid and support. But she's still outclassed by Lux in mid, outclassed by Zyra in support, and a generic and boring champion on the whole.

I'm not even going to seriously consider talk of her being overpowered (seriously... lowest win rate of any champion in the game, anyone?). Because her payoffs for the (550+1.6AP) R>E were significant. No CC, pushes early, weak early (long Mantra CD), short range... you get the idea.

In the top lane, Karma excelled at putting the opponent in bad situations. Take free damage from auto-attacks and Q vs. jump on Karma and get murdered by R>E vs. stay far away and get zoned. Her W wasn't that good and quite gimmicky, but I don't think Riot understood its purposes. One was for some extra damage (predominantly from the AP ratio) by targeting a minion behind the target champion. The other was to empower it (providing a huge MS multiplier) to escape ganks or chase enemies after a teamfight. It felt GOOD to empower your W towards the end of a teamfight and chase down that ADC, running hilariously fast for 5 seconds while they were extremely slow.
The lack of power curves as a result of her lack of an ultimate (e.g. Olaf/Vladimir becoming OP at Level 9, LeBlanc becoming OP at Level 6) created the impression that there was no pressure to force anything. Passive snowballing? Perhaps.

Now what do I have against new Karma?
She has nothing unique or iconic.
She is predictable, and much less bursty.
Her Q does less damage than an auto-attack. The slow is not noticeable. It s blocked by minions.
Her W (the ability which forces trades) is also the ability which needs to be used (empowered) AFTER forcing trades to win the trades... and the cooldown just happens to be 15 seconds. So she can't win trades.
Her E is weak. A 0.5 ratio? Seriously? Down from 0.8? The shield only gains 40 for every point? Only 240 at max rank? What do you think this is, a Lulu Whimsy? (This was probably the intention, and it is NOT effective or fun).
Her R>E has a higher base damage... at Lvl 16. Before, you would choose to level Q or E depending on the opponent, allowing you to CHOOSE your playstyle. This is just boring. Also, the ratio is 0.6 - nowhere near 0.8, which it was before. This has just been nerfed across the board - lower damage, lower range, MUCH higher cooldown.
Her farming is garbage compared to before. That said, before it was the fastest in the game (requires walking into minion wave), so I suppose that isn't saying much.


I've tried to make it work. I really have. But the conclusion I've come to is that old Karma was simply better. If Karma stays this way, top lane Karma is dead. And Karma will have lost what made her iconic. She'll also be weak in all roles, outclassed by others. I honestly would have preferred old Karma, even with the gimmicky W. And why? Because her team reliance made her unique and fun. It gave her a niche. Her kit made sense: empowering abilities gives them the opposite effect (except W). It was relaxing. There was no pressure to make plays (probably because you actually couldn't, but the paltry amount of CC given in the remake has not rectified that, and probably worsened it).

Others have also talked about this. Scarizard, Xypherous, anyone. Please. Just give us the reasoning behind these changes. Karma is just bland now. She has nothing unique.


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FrozenBlades

Senior Member

03-31-2013

I wish a red would, but they are waiting to touch this subject i think, and well, this is champion feedback.
But if a red or anyone comes here please check out http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=36226789 this, these are my ideas on making karma what she used to be(also its not mentioned in the thread but this guy is right, the fans would be kinda cool).


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

03-31-2013

old karma stronger than new karma? lol.


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TheDonMega

Senior Member

03-31-2013

To be honest both Karmas suck...at least the old one was a little more fun to play.


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Feynt

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Statistically the old Karma was stronger than the new one. Heal aside, Heavenly Wave did more damage than, and almost as often as, Inner Flame. Her shield did way more damage, and has dropped 20% in strength (pre-Mantra). The new Karma's Inner Flame on Q is too focused and fat. I can't tell you how many times I've tried a Mantra'd Inner Flame on a team fight, only to get it eaten by a minion who's ass was sticking out just a little too much, off to my side (not even in front of me). Her shield isn't even really a thing anymore. It's a move speed buff that makes you immune to a few scrapes from minions as you rush in to attack the champions.


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UgIierBetty

Senior Member

03-31-2013

I watched the new Karma champion spotlight and she looked really boring to me.


Compare her Q to every other AP mid's Q? It's a little green skillshot that is hard to see, isn't unique, and barely does any damage. So basically the most boring Q in the game.
I watched it, and legitimately thought: "I'm never going to buy that champion"
Before, even though I knew she was bad, I always considered getting her.

Her tether is super easy to get away from in lane, and after that she has no damage to hit you win.


Her shield (apparently from what you guys are saying) is worse than it was before.


I agree: I think they made her worse.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feynt View Post
Statistically the old Karma was stronger than the new one. Heal aside, Heavenly Wave did more damage than, and almost as often as, Inner Flame. Her shield did way more damage, and has dropped 20% in strength (pre-Mantra). The new Karma's Inner Flame on Q is too focused and fat. I can't tell you how many times I've tried a Mantra'd Inner Flame on a team fight, only to get it eaten by a minion who's ass was sticking out just a little too much, off to my side (not even in front of me). Her shield isn't even really a thing anymore. It's a move speed buff that makes you immune to a few scrapes from minions as you rush in to attack the champions.
lol, as an ahri main, fitting things in tight spaces underpressure is no problem. An ass sticking out wont phase me either :P


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niqht

Senior Member

03-31-2013

I'll give them $10 to make this an April fools joke and restore Real Karma™ + a couple buffs/tweaks


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

03-31-2013

I prefer the current but regardless of the reward of completing the W tether, I don't think it's quite what it should be.


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Feynt

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
lol, as an ahri main, fitting things in tight spaces underpressure is no problem. An ass sticking out wont phase me either :P
Charged reply aside, I'm usually pretty good with this sort of thing too (I play Ezreal and Blitz from time to time, though they're far from mains). My problem isn't that there's a minion touching me and my skill shot hits it. My problem is there's a minion 90 degrees from the direction I'm shooting with half a minion's width distance from me and his ass eats the shot. THIS seems like a bug, and I let it slide, but that still doesn't excuse the fact that it's weaker than Heavenly Wave was.