Karma Feedback and Ideas

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Gaiaside

Senior Member

03-31-2013

I'm linking these two threads here, because they've already been written out, and I saw one Red post suggesting that threads like these are posted here.

This one was from a Blue:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3286685

This one was mine:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...1#post36202245


The TL;DR on my post is that I feel a conflict of interest in the way Karma's ulti works.


I know that a core mechanic she has is the relationship between her ulti and the choices she makes with it. But it doesn't "feel" good to me. I know math-wise, it adds a lot of damage and utility to her kit. But even for having it at rank 1, it just doesn't feel satisfying to use. In fact, if I use it and miss my charged up Q, or my W breaks too early, I feel pretty frustrated that I have to wait so long to get another chance at it.

That said, other champions without "true ulti's" get them early because it changes the way they play. (Jayce and Elise, although I always wondered why they never gave Nid the same love). Udyr doesn't have an ulti, but it still changes the way he plays the game, based on what skills he decides to level. Karma doesn't get that from her ulti. She gets to decide what skill to make slightly better on it's next cast. And her new passive kind of makes her ulti feel even more lack luster, simply because she has 3 true spells, and no true passive or ulti.

That said, I had a cool idea that I've been tinkering with in my head for a while that's in my post, but since it is also a huge wall of text, I'll write out here too:

What if her ulti put gave her a buff/steroid that lasted for just a little while. She achieves "enlightenment" and can cast her spells to their full effects. This would give her ulti a really powerful feeling, and has some pretty obvious counter-play to it. Namely, "don't engage when her eyes are glowing and she's floating." Kind of like how you try to juke Kayle from using her E, or wouldn't "choose" to engage if Shyvana wasted her ulti. I think those kind of mechanics are both fun to use as a player, because it makes you feel powerful, and makes you focus on when to use them, as well as gives opponents some leeway when fighting you.

That said, it does take away from Karma's core mechanic. So Riot would have to make a choice between Theme and Mechanics on how to present their champion.

Thematically, Karma is a Buddhist / Spiritual utility caster. She has a lot going for her in terms of story, and character. I actually like this a lot, (though it's because my girlfriend is a cute Asian girl and her family is Buddhist), so I'd like to keep that part of her character intact.

Mechanically, she is presented as a champion who's core mechanic revolves around choosing which spell to upgrade, and when to use them. The difference between a charged Q and a charged E could make the difference in a team fight. You might get a Quadra at the expense of some team mates dying, or you might save your carry at the expense of you not getting any kills. Or you can charge your W for the heal, (which would be nice if I could use it against Blue Buff, or any of the large creep objectives. I know she isn't supposed to have huge sustain along with her shield, but it's super annoying that you can ONLY cast it on an enemy champ).

Her mechanics are part of the allure of playing her, and what sets her apart from other utility casters.

That said, it's also what holds her back a little bit.

Her passive rewards aggressive play, and for a support, that's pretty nice. As a solo laner, it's nice, but not nearly as useful as some other effects she could have. I know her old passive was too counter-productive for enemies. The counter-play to her old passive was to burst her from 100-0 before she could do anything, which is hard to do with the shield / slow / and heal she had. But it was much more interesting to play with, and it felt a lot better than her new passive. I think a lot of players liked the "Karma is a *****" passive, because it felt good with her theme. (Comes around, goes around). I wish there was something like this. Even if it was a mini thornmail passive, or return a small % of damage back to sender. I don't know how Riot would feel about that, because it also falls into the category of bad counter play. But as it stands, her passive just further highlights how lack luster her ulti "feels."

Again, I'm saying "feels" because her ulti has a lot of hidden power. If I remember correctly, I think it doubles the AP ratio on Q, and gives AoE shields to her team, plus speed buffs, and gives her some sustain in a duel with her W.

All of this said, I love Karma. She's a fun champion to play, and it's nice to see her get some love from Riot. I plan to play her a lot more and try to actually get good with her. But as it stands, she does suffer from some mechanical problems.


So again, which is more important to display and ultimately sell your champion? (By sell, I mean what will get me to pick her other over champions). Her mechanics, or her theme?



TL;DR
Like the rework, but it still didn't fix some of her mechanical problems.
* Passive and Ulti feel pretty lack luster, even with the hidden strength of the ulti.

* Q upgrade is nice. It makes it better for her positioning, although I miss Fans being her source of power.

* W is a good upgrade from old version, but I'd like to be able to cast it on minions. It would help with objectives and buffs. I recognize sustain would be an issue for Riot.

* E is really nice. Love it.

* Ulti is strong on paper, but doesn't "feel" strong to the player. That's where a lot of people seem to have problems.


Thanks for reading my huge fortress of text. Sorry ^_^;;;


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ExpandingEye

Senior Member

03-31-2013

I agree about her Mantras.

The Mantra effects are nicer, more understandable, but they still don't feel like ultimates, or close enough to ultimates. :]


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SUPERSEYMOUR

Senior Member

03-31-2013

In her Tips section Gathering fire is misspelled Gatering fire in the first tip


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Stonedsoul

Senior Member

03-31-2013

In all fairness, in team fights her Ult is usable much more often then most. Its in lane that it feels extremely week, mainly because you only have 1 damaging ability that can hit creeps (and therefore reduce CD).

Altogether, however, im in love with her new kit. She feels like the master of the battlefield. Root this guy, slow those guys, shield that one. Shield + root + AoE slow = me likey.


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Moons

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Ok, but her shield never gets to protect anyone, its probably worse than jarvan's when it comes to defence. For now its more a movement buff, but if you want to give her such a buff, why even hide it in useless shield?

And Mantra, oh god, its like, a slight improvement for Q, because i never get to use it for anything more. And if you wont manage to hit 3 people at once and make them stay in the area for more damage, its pretty pathetic


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TheDonMega

Senior Member

03-31-2013

I think the main problem is the fact that her passive should be part of her ultimate. Right now it feels like she has no passive. If riot were to add her current passive to mantra and give her back her old passive she would be fine I reckon.


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Gaiaside

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Oh snap. The thread actually got read.

I'd like to open the discussion up to possibilities oh how to make her ulti combos "feel" better.


As it stands, I feel that her ulti is a little underwhelming. The numbers in it are really good, but I think that over-all, it just feels bad to use because of the way it's executed.

I like the the way the spells work with their upgrades. And even having a basic form / upgraded form of the spells works really well and is interesting. And I like the choice component in it.

I was tinkering around, and I came up with another idea. It feels better than my original concept. I'd like some constructive feed back.

My Idea:

What if Mantra was her passive?

Every time she casts a spell, it builds a charge. Like Annie's passive. And then gives the added effect to the next spell, after it has reached a threshold.

I like this, because it does two things:

1) It preserves the idea of spell choice as a core mechanic, meaning that fundamentally, a skilled Karma player would have just as much control over their upgraded spell choice as they do in the current form.

and 2) It opens up Karma to have an actual Ultimate ability. (I still like my Enlightened State idea for this. Which allows all of her spell casts within a buff duration period to have the added effects they normally do. I know some number tweaks may need to be made. But the more I think about that possibility, the more I like it, both mechanically and thematically).


Thoughts, comments, ideas?


Try to keep it positive. I know it's hard to be rational when you feel passionately about something, but I'm really hoping that we might get a red response and get a better insight into their decision making, and champion design process. I think getting some good feedback would encourage a red to reply, and we might get some better understanding and clarity to what Karma means to Riot, and how they see her, compared to how we as players see her.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDonMega View Post
I think the main problem is the fact that her passive should be part of her ultimate. Right now it feels like she has no passive. If riot were to add her current passive to mantra and give her back her old passive she would be fine I reckon.
This is a big part of what feels weird about her. Though the old passive was kind of punishing opponents who were poke-based. Karma would go into a hyper-mode, similar to Demon Souls / Dark Souls, and was just unfair to play against if done right.


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Henry Plainview

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDonMega View Post
I think the main problem is the fact that her passive should be part of her ultimate. Right now it feels like she has no passive. If riot were to add her current passive to mantra and give her back her old passive she would be fine I reckon.
Old Karma had no ultimate, new Karma has no ultimate and no passive


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Rushuna Tendo

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Senior Member

03-31-2013

IDK i feel that currently it feels way to hard to lane in mid with q being blocked by minions.... and when you do land a Q its so lack luster.... If you do your W - R-Q combo.... sure you can do a good chunk of damage at the cost of being completely out of position....


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Feynt

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoirTheBlack View Post
Ok, but her shield never gets to protect anyone, its probably worse than jarvan's when it comes to defence. For now its more a movement buff, but if you want to give her such a buff, why even hide it in useless shield?
It... actually is equivalent to Jarvan's now, now that I look at it. If you engage in a team fight with Jarvan and then use your shield, you get a 510 health shield and slow all nearby enemies for 2 seconds. Karma's shield is 460 without Mantra. o.o;


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