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### Frequently Asked Questions or Mechanics

Keen Kigoi

Junior Member

Quote:
many people get temped to think that 75% dodge means you survive 75% longer

The world is full of stupid people who are tempted to think a lot of things. That doesn't make it true. Your own conclusions have their own flaws; like being wrong, for example.

The difference from raising your dodge from 6% to 40% vs Ryze will raise your survivability a negligible amount. Your conclusions are vs auto attacks and standing toe to toe with someone until you die.

Strill

Senior Member

Quote:
Keen Kigoi:
The world is full of stupid people who are tempted to think a lot of things. That doesn't make it true. Your own conclusions have their own flaws; like being wrong, for example.

The difference from raising your dodge from 6% to 40% vs Ryze will raise your survivability a negligible amount. Your conclusions are vs auto attacks and standing toe to toe with someone until you die.

My conclusions are for auto attacks, but standing toe to toe with someone until I die has nothing to do with it. It's simply a way to measure the benefit of dodge linearly, i.e. in a way that's much more intuitive to most people than the asymptotic progression inherent in dodge percentages.

Keen Kigoi

Junior Member

Quote:
Strill:
My conclusions are for auto attacks, but standing toe to toe with someone until I die has nothing to do with it. It's simply a way to measure the benefit of dodge linearly, i.e. in a way that's much more intuitive to most people than the asymptotic progression inherent in dodge percentages.

Ok, perhaps a bit more clarity is warranted.

First, dodge is multiplicatively additive formula. Stacking 2 items with 12% dodge does not give 24% dodge chance. Slightly less actually.

more importantly this little gem:
Quote:
Stumpster:

Q: Can you dodge spells?

A: You cannot dodge spells. The only way to not receive damage from spells is to be spell immune from one of these:

- Banshee's Veil (blocks one spell every 30 seconds)
- Sivir's Spell Shield
- Morgana's Black Shield
- Judicator's Invulnerabilty (note that unlike the others, while this one blocks spell damage, anything secondary like a slow would still happen)

I guess I'm a little confused. For what large number of opposing champions do you think your "only auto attacks" survivability numbers apply?

Strill

Senior Member

Quote:
First, dodge is multiplicatively additive formula. Stacking 2 items with 12% dodge does not give 24% dodge chance. Slightly less actually.
That's exactly the kind of terminology I set out to criticize. You act as though the act of stacking two items with 12% dodge chance has diminishing returns when in fact it has increasing returns.

If you acquire one item with 12% dodge chance, you can now withstand 1/(1-0.12) = 1.13636364 or 13.63% more damage from auto-attacks. Acquire a second 12% dodge chance item and you can now withstand 1/(1-.12)*1/(1-.12) = 1.29117769 or 29.12% more damage. The second bonus gave you an extra 1.86% more than what you got from the first bonus.

The benefits of stacking dodge increase exponentially with each additional dodge bonus.

If you were concerned with my mention of asymptotic scaling, then I'm just saying that if y is the amount of physical damage you can sustain without dying and x is dodge percentage, then y is proportional to 1/(1-x), which approaches infinity as x approaches 100%.

Quote:
Keen Kigoi:
Ok, perhaps a bit more clarity is warranted.

First, dodge is multiplicatively additive formula. Stacking 2 items with 12% dodge does not give 24% dodge chance. Slightly less actually.

more importantly this little gem:

I guess I'm a little confused. For what large number of opposing champions do you think your "only auto attacks" survivability numbers apply?

I'm not saying that there's a particular case where dodge is the most important stat or that they should ignore magic damage. I'm just saying that when someone is considering the dodge stat, they should look at the benefit it provides them relative to their HP and note that dodge increases exponentially in effectiveness the more dodge bonuses you stack, and does not decrease in effectiveness as people might naively assume from looking at the percentages, or in this case, your statement that two 12% bonuses does not equal a 24% bonus.

ValheruWolf

Member

Um, strill you are looking at the amount of hits it'll take to kill you from auto attacks vs dodge, but btw you kind of calced it wrong for the second one. Figured out the dodge then put it in that formula. so for 12% dodge first boots you take 1/(1-0.12) = 1.13636364 where 2 sets of boots would be

12% dodge
(88*0.12) = 10.56%
so 12+10.56 = 22.56

so now we go yo your formula 1/(1-0.2256) = 1.2913223... which is actually higher then what you have, heh

This is looking at how many attacks it would take to do the full damage that you would do to a person if they didn't have dodge boots.

Most people look at it more towards how likely is a specific attack to hit (you can dodge abilities... so if Nasus is swinging an overpowered Q attack at you you would prefer that attack didn't hit you if you want to survive) The only spells you can't specifically dodge are the ones the are magic I believe. I'm pretty sure that i saw someone dodge Tristanas ultimate on me, (they got knocked back but didn't take damage) though my memory may be a little foggy on that.

If the boots added straight numbers, the 2 12% dodge equals 24% dodge would get you 1/(1-0.24) = 1.16279 or 16.3% more attacks.

To break up what those numbers mean to some people who may not understand. lets go back to 1/(1-0.2256) = 1.2913223 for the 2 12% dodge items. If without dodge 100 regular auto attack hits would kill you in this case they would have to send approx 129 auto attacks to kill you as you will dodge about 29 of those attacks.

ValheruWolf

Member

Quote:
Xurface:
1. 748 -> ((748-415)*0,8-65)*0,5+415=515,7
2. 748 -> (748-490)*0,5+65)*0,2+415=570,2

So which is true? Because it's not equal 604. (604 is still above 415.)

ok your math just has me totaly confused here, where the heck are the 65's coming from?

I would guess that their math is wrong int he first post, but they are saying 748 base becomes

Step 1, reduction over 415, base 748 ->
[(748-415)*0.8]+415 =
[(333)*0.8]+415
266.4+415 = 681.4

This is over 490 so

Step 2 reduction
[(681.4-490)*0.5]+490=
[(191.4)*0.5]+490=
95.7+490 = 585.7

Which doesn;t equal 604 either so good question, I'm willing to bet on my calc though.

Just to work out the top thread calc
[(748-490)*0.5)+490=
[(258)*0.5]+490
(129)+490 = 619 so we know that math is wrong.

Even more complicated but closer to the 604 would be base
748 reduction over 415 so

333 left to reduce. to get to 490 movement speed it takes 490-415/0.8 = 93.75 movement speed

(93.75)*0.8 = 75 +415 = 490

so 333-93.75 = 239.25

so (239.25 * 0.5) + 490 =
119.6 + 490 = 609.6 movement speed.

Which one of these options is correct fully depends on how they coded it.

Aregionius

Senior Wrenchman

Quote:
Strill:
The benefits of stacking dodge increase exponentially with each additional dodge bonus.

This is very, very much not true.

Also, abilities are no longer dodge-able for the most part, so dodge only has limited application on auto-attacks which primarily applies to a few select champions and to minion hits.

Strill

Senior Member

Quote:
ValheruWolf:
Um, strill you are looking at the amount of hits it'll take to kill you from auto attacks vs dodge, but btw you kind of calced it wrong for the second one. Figured out the dodge then put it in that formula. so for 12% dodge first boots you take 1/(1-0.12) = 1.13636364 where 2 sets of boots would be

12% dodge
(88*0.12) = 10.56%
so 12+10.56 = 22.56

so now we go yo your formula 1/(1-0.2256) = 1.2913223... which is actually higher then what you have, heh
Ok I'm sorry my calculator must have introduced some rounding errors making it one one thousandth of a percent lower than what it should've been. When you put 1/(1-.12)*1/(1-.12) into google (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=.88*.12#sclient=psy&hl=en&biw=1051&bih=909&source=hp&q=1%2F(1-.12)*1%2F(1-.12)&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=38664e7e8c090ddc) it gives the same result as what you have there.
Quote:
If the boots added straight numbers, the 2 12% dodge equals 24% dodge would get you 1/(1-0.24) = 1.16279 or 16.3% more attacks.
You must've made a typo when you calculated that because 1/(1-0.24) = 1.31578947, not 1.16279.
Quote:
To break up what those numbers mean to some people who may not understand. lets go back to 1/(1-0.2256) = 1.2913223 for the 2 12% dodge items. If without dodge 100 regular auto attack hits would kill you in this case they would have to send approx 129 auto attacks to kill you as you will dodge about 29 of those attacks.
Or in more general terms, it'll take 29% longer to kill you with auto-attacks. You could also say your HP is 29% more effective against auto-attacks.

Quote:
Aregionius:
This is very, very much not true.

I gave calculations showing how it's true. It's kind of polite to give reasons supporting your opinion rather than just spouting "You're wrong".

And for the record, I do understand why you might say that so I'll qualify that the effectiveness of dodge increases exponentially only in respect to what dodge works on. If you consider total survival time with non-dodgable damage included, then dodge will have increasing returns at the start, then start to decrease after a certain number and quantity of dodge bonuses.
Quote:
Also, abilities are no longer dodge-able for the most part, so dodge only has limited application on auto-attacks which primarily applies to a few select champions and to minion hits.

And I'll say it once again: I'm not saying whether dodge is worthwhile in the first place, simply how well it does what it does.

Rooke

Senior Member

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=120444&d=1297989512

That might be nice to add to the IP section of your guide, i dont remember who made it, but its a graph of IP gains between the new and old system, for winning and lossing, and lists how the duration of the game corresponds to how much IP is gained.