Frequently Asked Questions or Mechanics

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versatil

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Senior Member

12-25-2009

Thanks again. What's an adjudicator? How can we get a more official response in general, like what are the proper channels? Not urgent or being demanding, just curious.

All of the sudden I feel as if I'm the only one who went dodge runes lol.


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Nagu

Junior Member

12-26-2009

I found something interesting today when I was trying to figure out the effects of having negative armor from both being reduced under 0 and having a lot of armor penetration. At first I thought that armor penetration could increase damage done to a higher value than the character sheet, but after some testing I found that it was only the 5% from spec that made me hit minions harder than normal. I started up a practice game with full armor pen in reds(had a lvl 30 friend help out). I only specced for the 6 armor pen from spec and no other increases. I hit minions for the exact value on my character sheet. Same thing with a hero(level 1 had 21 armor, I had 35 total penetration). I later picked up a Black Cleaver and went to town on the dragon. Based on the %s in the dragon's armor tooltip and my damage being delt you can hit harder than base damage on a target with negative armor and the negative damge reduction is the same as the positive damage reduction would be with that amount of armor.

This is very disappointing as it makes armor penetration an unattractive stat at low levels especially vs minions. It also means that even though armor pen is good near 0, it has no value if it takes them under.

I did not get the chance to test how Last Whisper affects damage on a target with negative armor but I would assume it has no effect.

I know this isn't a question, but it was a question bugging me or a long time and maybe it should be looked into(unless the idea is to prevent armor penetration from being too strong at low levels).


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Stumpster

Adjudicator

12-26-2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by versatil View Post
Thanks again. What's an adjudicator? How can we get a more official response in general, like what are the proper channels? Not urgent or being demanding, just curious.

All of the sudden I feel as if I'm the only one who went dodge runes lol.
The majority of Adjudicators are those who have been around since the early days of beta. AFAIK, if you make yourself useful in the forums and are seen helping people, posting guides, etc., then they would bump you up. Although there haven't really been any bumps recently, probably because Riot is trying to work on other parts pertaining to the forum.

@ Nagu

It's true that armor penetration (and magic penetration) cannot reduce below 0, which makes it completely useless on minions and somewhat weak in the early game (if you have a lot of it). The only things that can are armor reduction (like Black Cleaver). I could've sworn I put that in the front page, but I guess not...I'll make sure to edit it in.


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GrimGriz

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Recruiter

12-26-2009

armor pen penetrates armor, but once it's been penetrated (down to 0) there is no additional benefit. Cleaver is different since it removes armor or whatever they call it.


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Stumpster

Adjudicator

12-26-2009

In the same vein, you could argue that removing armor that doesn't exist doesn't make much sense either. :P But whatever, it is what it is.


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PineappleThis

Senior Member

12-26-2009

Does anyone know how much Frozen Mallet slows by its the only item/skill I've seen that doesn't give a % or amount just says slows for 2.5 seconds?


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versatil

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Senior Member

12-26-2009

I would assume at least the same amount as phage with the added benefit that it is a guaranteed on-hit effect rather potentia 1 in 4. But don't take my word for it.


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Strill

Senior Member

12-28-2009

Quote:
Q: How does dodge work?

A: Dodge works with diminishing returns. As an example, let's say you have 10% dodge in your runes.

10% dodge.

You grab Ninja Tabi, which gives 11% dodge.

11% dodge +
(89 * .1) = 8.9% dodge

For a total of 19.9% dodge. (Note that the 89 comes from the percent remaining from the previous dodge percentages have been calculated.)

You then get Phantom Dancer, which gives 20% dodge.

20% dodge +
(80 * .11) = 8.8% dodge +
(71.2 * .1) = 7.12% dodge

For a total of 35.92% dodge.
That's not diminishing returns, it's increasing returns for the amount of dodge on a single bonus, and linear returns for multiple dodge bonuses. The amount of additional time you stay alive is MORE THAN proportional to the sum of the dodge bonuses you have.

So for your example, 10% dodge from runes would allow you, on average, to stay alive for 1 / ( 1 - 10%) = 1.11 times as long.

combine that with the Ninja Tabi (11% dodge) and you survive for
1 / ( 1 - 10%) * 1 / (1 - 11% ) = 1.25 times as long

combine those with the Phantom Dancer (20%) and you survive for
1 / ( 1 - 10%) * 1 / (1 - 11% ) * 1 / (1 - 20% ) = 1.56 times as long

In each case, the average additional time that you survive for is greater than the sum of the dodge
percentages. There is no diminishing returns.

Why?
If dodge stacked additively you'd have assymptotically increasing returns. Each additional percentage of dodge would be more effective than the last.

For example, going from 0-50% dodge doubles your survival time.
Going from 50% to 75% doubles it again. You now survive four times as long.

The first time you doubled your survival time it took 50% dodge, but then it only took 25% to do it again. Each additional point of dodge becomes more effective than the last.

In fact, 100% dodge would be INFINITE returns because you'd stay alive forever no matter how many melee attacks were directed at you.

This misconception is probably one of the most persistent and annoying pitfalls people seem to have at understanding mathematics.


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versatil

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Senior Member

12-29-2009

Thanks for that post Strill


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Stumpster

Adjudicator

12-29-2009

@Strill

Someone corrected me on that a few pages back, never got around to changing the front page. Thanks for reminding me.