Why does no one build armor/magic resistance?

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Youniverse

Senior Member

03-30-2013

Athenes and zhonyas are very good items in ARAM but are they considered defensive items? Either way pure defensive items are useless for the most part for AP/AD carries. You are severely handicapping yourself if you go this route the way % pen work nowadays.


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LrdVprScrpn

Senior Member

04-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDru View Post
Okay, I'll keep itemizing no MR and winning 80% of my games.

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If it works for you then go for it. Some people are good enough to avoid snares/skillshots 95% of the time and the MR doesn't help because you never take damage anyway. This is assuming you are a carry of some sort.

The problem is people who are incapable of dodging skillshots/avoiding damage yet ***** about the magic damage they are receiving without doing anything to mitigate it. I assume you are not one of these people because you aren't complaining about it.

If you are consistently dying to magic damage, and you do not buy some form of MR, then you are an idiot, plain and simple. It is the most cost effective way, regardless of what the enemy has built, to survive a little bit longer in a fight.

MR is more effective than Armor in most cases because if you can survive a caster's wombo combo they can't do much, but AD carries don't need cooldowns to kill you. It often doesn't take a ton of mitigation to go from being instagibbed by Leblanc to being left with 15% life and a desire for retribution.

If you force the enemy to start building mpen items then they are not buying things like Deathcaps or DFG's. By making an inexpensive sidegrade in your build you are forcing the enemy to take an expensive detour in theirs to pick up one stat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Null Signature View Post
rump-rustled
Nice.


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Birthday Deluxe

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Member

04-01-2013

Main time this sort of thing drives me insane is if I'm up against a 5 AP or 5 AD team and still don't see any resistance items. Stacking defenses against a team like this, especially if you're a tank, can make a huge difference even if they have start stacking penetration.

That said, even carries have at least a few options with cheap base items that give them MR without forcing them to deviate their build completely (Scimitar and Banshee's are both solid ADC items regardless of how much AP is on the other team), so it doesn't make sense to at least splash a little in somewhere.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

04-02-2013

Assume a good mix of physical/magical dmg. Lets look at some facts and reasons why people avoid armor/MR.

It is cheaper to get Effective Health by boosting health, over armor and MR at the beginning of the game. At level 1, you can double your EHP by either..
a) Buying 600 more health (at a cost of 1300ish gold), or
b) buying approx 130 points of armor and magic resistance (18x260)=costing 4.7k gold).
(note: 130 because everyone will have the 8% penetration mastery, and you start with 30MR,20ish armor)

Since it takes so long to level up in ARAM, the above calculations stay into effect for a lot of the game.
Even at level 18...

Assume 2k health, 50 MR, 90 armor (with usual runes n stuff). Assume someone bought a Aegis/bulwark, boosting to 75 MR, 100 armor or whatver.

Assume enemy has 40 flat penetration, and 8% scaling:

Your EHP is: 2k health, 30ishMR, 50ish armor. Ave of 40. EHP = 2800.

You can double this by getting
a) 2000 health - 4300ish gold cost.
b) 150ish pts of armor and MR = 300x18 = 5.6k
(once again factoring in the 8% pen)
Hell, its STILL better to boost health over armor. And thats with NO VOID/BC/LW/Abilities.

Armor doesnt become really efficient until you already have 3k health. So no wonder people build health over armor/MR. Riot really broke defensive options and have had to frantically nerf Warmogs,etc to give an illusion of itemization. When really, everyone would take straight health most of the time.


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PrincessDerpy

Senior Member

04-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrosPigeon View Post
No **** void staff counters mr. With the masteries you have roughly 45% pen I believe and since mr has diminishing returns, yeah you only keep 55% of your mr (before flat pen) but it's also the 55% most effective that you keep. So mr is ALWAYS a good thing to have.
Dear idiot: resists increase your ability to survive incoming damage in a linear fashion. There is no such thing as a "most effective 55% of your MR".


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Zielmann

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDerpy View Post
Dear idiot: resists increase your ability to survive incoming damage in a linear fashion. There is no such thing as a "most effective 55% of your MR".
So you're saying this is linear? http://puu.sh/2t2OT
Might want to have your eyes checked.
When you have less of a resistance, adding a single point to your total makes more difference than when you have more resistance. It's math.

If you have 30 MR, and you buy 20 more, your MR goes from 30 to 50. At 30 MR, you have 23% damage reduction. At 50 MR, you're up to 33% reduction.

Compare this to a tank who already has 150 MR, and buys 20 more. At 150 MR, you have 60% damage reduction. At 170 MR, you have 63% damage reduction.


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GrosPigeon

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDerpy View Post
Dear idiot: resists increase your ability to survive incoming damage in a linear fashion. There is no such thing as a "most effective 55% of your MR".
You just gave me cancer. Maybe you should check the actual maths behind MR/Armor before talking.


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LrdVprScrpn

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
Blah blah blah lots of math blah blah

Nobody ever said the goal was to double your EHP. Resistances fall off in effectiveness the more you have. This is why at least ONE resistance item is incredibly effective at boosting your EHP.

You're arguing against a point that nobody is making or would try to make.


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PrincessDerpy

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zielmann View Post
So you're saying this is linear? http://puu.sh/2t2OT
Might want to have your eyes checked.
When you have less of a resistance, adding a single point to your total makes more difference than when you have more resistance. It's math.
I hate you. I hate you because now I have to explain what I've explained a thousand times before. Let's get this over with.

I am going to use the relationship between 3 points to demonstrate why you don't understand the relationship between total armor and total damage mitigation

At 0 resist, you have 0% total mitigation
At 30 resist, you have 25% total mitigation
At 100 resist, you have 50% total mitigation

The first thing out of your mouth is probably "but I'm right and the numbers show that I am!". Let me tell you why you're wrong.

Going from 25% total mitigation to 50% is not the same as going from 0% to 25%, save in relation to RAW INCOMING DAMAGE. What actually happens when you go from 25% to 50% is you cut the damage you were taking at 25% down by a third, 33%. How does this work? At 25% mitigation you take 75% of raw incoming damage. At 50% you take 50% of raw incoming damage. Ergo, going from 25% to 50% mitigation actually improved your defenses by more than you think they should at first blush.

In fact, this works moving onward. Going from 50% total mitigation to 75% mitigation cuts the damage you were taking at 50% in half.

This is why resists actually do not have diminishing returns even though it looks like diminishing returns. Percentile damage mitigation becomes increasingly more valuable the closer its value gets to 100%. In fact, to make a point of absurdity, going from 98% to 99% would halve damage intake. Granted you would be taking piss all for damage at 98% mitigation, but you'd be taking half of that piss all at 99%.


In short, if the game scaled like this

0-0
30-25%
60-50%
90-75%
120-99.9%(recursive to infinity decimals)

Resists would actually scale exponentially with themselves because each additional 1% mitigation is actually more valuable than the last!


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Zielmann

Senior Member

04-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDerpy View Post
I hate you. I hate you because now I have to explain what I've explained a thousand times before. Let's get this over with.

I am going to use the relationship between 3 points to demonstrate why you don't understand the relationship between total armor and total damage mitigation

At 0 resist, you have 0% total mitigation
At 30 resist, you have 25% total mitigation
At 100 resist, you have 50% total mitigation

The first thing out of your mouth is probably "but I'm right and the numbers show that I am!". Let me tell you why you're wrong.

Going from 25% total mitigation to 50% is not the same as going from 0% to 25%, save in relation to RAW INCOMING DAMAGE. What actually happens when you go from 25% to 50% is you cut the damage you were taking at 25% down by a third, 33%. How does this work? At 25% mitigation you take 75% of raw incoming damage. At 50% you take 50% of raw incoming damage. Ergo, going from 25% to 50% mitigation actually improved your defenses by more than you think they should at first blush.

In fact, this works moving onward. Going from 50% total mitigation to 75% mitigation cuts the damage you were taking at 50% in half.

This is why resists actually do not have diminishing returns even though it looks like diminishing returns. Percentile damage mitigation becomes increasingly more valuable the closer its value gets to 100%. In fact, to make a point of absurdity, going from 98% to 99% would halve damage intake. Granted you would be taking piss all for damage at 98% mitigation, but you'd be taking half of that piss all at 99%.


In short, if the game scaled like this

0-0
30-25%
60-50%
90-75%
120-99.9%(recursive to infinity decimals)

Resists would actually scale exponentially with themselves because each additional 1% mitigation is actually more valuable than the last!
That's a very twisted view of how this works. You have to look at it in terms of practical use within the game, and also the argument at-hand in this thread.

Let's go back to my example.

You have an effective 30 MR, and a fed Karthus at level 18 has an ult that'll do 950 damage, base. You take 731.5 damage. You buy an addition 20 MR. Now the ult does 636.5 damage. For 20 MR, you just reduced the damage of the ult by almost 100.

Now the tank with an effective 150 MR takes the same ult. Take 380 damage. Tank buys 20 more MR, and the damage only reduces to 351.5 damage. So adding 20 MR on top of the 150 you already had is only removing 30 damage from the ult.

Last I checked a reduction of 100 damage is greater than a reduction of 30 damage. If resistance calculations were linear as you claim, adding 20 MR should be reducing the amount of incoming damage by the same amount (percent), regardless of how much MR you had before.

You are correct that each percentage point of mitigation has the same value with respect to the incoming damage. In this example, a single percentage point reduces the damage by 9.5. But the key here is that you don't buy resistances by percent reduction. You buy mitigation by a separate value which is translated into a percent damage reduction based on a non-linear equation. Conversely, penetration is calculated based off your resistance value, not your calculated percentage of mitigation. Flat values of pen effectively subtract a flat value from your resitance. Percent pen effectively removes a percentage of your resistance value, which is translated into a percent mitigation afterwards. Percent pen does not act directly on your percent mitigation (having an effective 60% damage reduction is not reduced to 15% damage reduction by 45% magic pen).

When the other person here posted about the 'first 55% of your mitigation' going further than the last 45%, he wasn't talking with respect to percent damage reduction. He was talking about your actual MR value. Let's say somebody has 120 MR. If the enemy has 45% magic pen, you have an effective 66 MR. This translates into a change from 54% mitigation to about 40% mitigation. So after accounting for the 45% magic pen, the incoming damage is increased by 14%.

While your math is not wrong, your interpretation of the situation and the data, and how you applied that math (or perhaps more appropriately what math you are using), is off.


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