Would You Kindly? Nautilus is in need of some QoL changes.

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FrozenIndustry

Member

03-26-2013

So, a brief introduction, everyone. I'm FrozenIndustry, or just Frozen. Now, I wouldn't consider myself an expert Nautilus player, or an expert League player by any means, but Naut's been my favorite champion since his initial release. Everything about him is great, his look, his lore, his kit, his overall feel, I just love the whole package dearly. He brings a nasty amount of crowd control come lategame, and his ganks early to mid can be devastating, and feel wonderfully satisfying when you get them off successfully. However, I've been gathering some issues with Naut over my course of time playing with him, and while I think that a majority of his kit is fine as is, I feel like he's deserving of some "quality of life" changes that could really help him work out some issues.

Edit:
IMPORTANT: As of the most recent patch, Nautilus' base armor has been buffed up to a total of 19, while retaining his (+3.25 per level) scaling. Naut's W Cooldown has also been reduced at early ranks, making his clear even stronger. With this recent changes, I have removed the section regarding Nautilus' base armor, and have shifted the focus of this topic to issues plaguing his W currently.

RELEASE THE WALL OF TEXT

Naut's damage (or lack thereof)

Now, Naut was never meant to **** out damage, ever. It's not in his design, so don't jump down my throat for suggesting he get some slight tweaks to it. In fact, I think that people do underestimate Naut's damage a lot of the time, as the DoT from W can pull out some surprises early-mid game. However, Naut isn't an early-mid game champion, and by the time late game rolls around, where's he's at his strongest, most champions can shrug off his damage without so much as a scratch. I've attempted some unique builds on him in order to maximize offensive potential specifically as a tank while still remaining tanky, relying on magic penetration for power (For example: Sorc Boots, Abyssal Scepter, Sunfire Cape, Liandry's Torment, Warmog's, Runic Bulwark). However, such builds like this can be detrimental to the rest of your team, and are completely situational. I see Naut's damage issue as really boiled down to two core issues:

A.) Naut's base stats, as listed in the former issue, prevent him from building any damage, whereas tanks such as Amumu, Cho-Gath, Malphite, etc. can opt to build some damage, due to their free stats, high base damages, and/or raw defensive strength. Items like Iceborn Gauntlet and Wit's End are surprisingly effective on Nautilus, but don't bring the same threat that someone like Cho or Amumu can, despite them having similarly deadly amounts of cc. HOWEVER, with Naut's new base armor increase, this issue is slightly reduced. It's not gone entirely as an option, but its relevance has diminished.

B.) Nautilus' main form of damage easily comes from his W's DoT effect applied to his autoattacks. Naturally, since the damage is autoattack based, an easy way to augment it would be to nab some attack speed, and an item like Wit's End seems perfect on a champ like Nautilus. However, buying AS on Naut is actually an incredibly risky move. As he currently is, Naut's W damage applies in 2 seconds, the first "tick" is on the autoattack portion that applies the DoT, and the second tick occurs a second after. That means that having an attack speed of 1.0 or higher on Naut (which is very easy to hit with 9 AS marks and a Wit's End) actually hurts your damage, as your next autoattack overrides the second tick of the previous DoT, as the DoT doesn't stack. I find this to be a bit unfair, because you're technically being punished for buying a useful stat on Nautilus. It's taunting to see items like Wit's End and Zephyr in his recommended items in the first place, as you realize that it's almost utterly useless to buy them because of this damage error. If I recall, Teemo had a similar issue with his Toxic Dart, and was fixed some time ago in Season 2. I'd like to propose a similar change to Nautilus, so buying AS on him doesn't feel so damning at times, as you can see, I can't stress how frustrating this is.

Quote:
(Special Thanks to Skullkid2424 with his fantastic guide on Nautilus, who brought to my attention the issue with attack speed. Check out his guide at: http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=2477...us-build-guide for more detail and math on the issue, if you aren't convinced.)
Here's another analysis of some of the problems plaguing Naut's W, as pointed out by helpful poster Onimus Terlain:
Quote:
I think the most frustrating part of his W is you can activate it, and then the enemy can remove it instantly with 1 or 2 autoattacks or sometimes just a spell. And once his shield is gone, so is his damage. This type of mechanic would work great if he were an assassin who came in after it was initiated and people aren’t really paying attention to him or are worried about the tank in their face. But that’s not how Nautilus was designed to be played. He is the initiator. So he is going to take a lot of the upfront damage. So you can either initiate, lose a pretty significant amount of health and then activate the shield when your team follows up, or you can activate the shield for defense during your initiate and lose all your damage before you can deal any. His W is really his only offense AND defense in his kit. The rest is CC. Obviously, great CC, but even the best champs can’t do much without at least a little bit of damage potential. The reason I like Nautilus’ W is because during team fights it seems counter intuitive to attack the tank in order to get rid of his shield. So by making his W both his offense and defense, it encourages enemy teams to treat him like the tank he is and attack him or suffer the consequences. But in that same vein, if you are attacked just a single time or maybe twice, the shield dissipates, leaving you with zero damage, thus relying entirely on your team to sweep up the team fight with only your CC to help you.
TL;DR: Nautilus is meant to have a weak early game to offset his powerful lategame, but with his current state, he can often be a liability early game, and a less than sufficient tank lategame, with less than sufficient base stats and almost unnoticeable damage, partially due to a bug with his W and attack speed.

Well, that about covers it. I'm not asking for massive changes, or even both changes to be considered, I feel that just one of them would drastically improve Nautilus' current state in League. If you have any questions, comments, or criticisms, please feel free to sound off below, especially if you feel that I've left something out of consideration. Also, if there are any reds out there, I'd love to hear your feedback on the matter!

A man jungles, a slave lanes.


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Torbo

Junior Member

03-26-2013

I second this. Well-written, thought out, and reasonable. Nice job.


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Onimus Terlain

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Senior Member

03-26-2013

I agree as well. His base stats and damage are very frustrating.

I think the most frustrating part of his W is you can activate it, and then the enemy can remove it instantly with 1 or 2 autoattacks or sometimes just a spell. And once his shield is gone, so is his damage.

This type of mechanic would work great if he were an assassin who came in after it was initiated and people aren’t really paying attention to him or are worried about the tank in their face.

But that’s not how Nautilus was designed to be played. He is the initiator. So he is going to take a lot of the upfront damage.

So you can either initiate, lose a pretty significant amount of health and then activate the shield when your team follows up, or you can activate the shield for defense during your initiate and lose all your damage before you can deal any.

His W is really his only offense AND defense in his kit. The rest is CC. Obviously, great CC, but even the best champs can’t do much without at least a little bit of damage potential.

The reason I like Nautilus’ W is because during team fights it seems counter intuitive to attack the tank in order to get rid of his shield. So by making his W both his offense and defense, it encourages enemy teams to treat him like the tank he is and attack him or suffer the consequences.

But in that same vein, if you are attacked just a single time or maybe twice, the shield dissipates, leaving you with zero damage, thus relying entirely on your team to sweep up the team fight with only your CC to help you.

My suggestion would be have the shield last 10 seconds. And then the damage lasts 10 seconds or 2-3 seconds after your shield is destroyed, whichever comes first.

That way, if your shield is activated and then shot down in the first 1 or 2 seconds, you still have the opportunity to spread some damage around before it deactivates.

That’s my only concern with Nautilus. Everything else, I think, is perfect the way it is.


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FrozenIndustry

Member

03-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onimus Terlain View Post
I think the most frustrating part of his W is you can activate it, and then the enemy can remove it instantly with 1 or 2 autoattacks or sometimes just a spell. And once his shield is gone, so is his damage.

This type of mechanic would work great if he were an assassin who came in after it was initiated and people aren’t really paying attention to him or are worried about the tank in their face.

But that’s not how Nautilus was designed to be played. He is the initiator. So he is going to take a lot of the upfront damage.

So you can either initiate, lose a pretty significant amount of health and then activate the shield when your team follows up, or you can activate the shield for defense during your initiate and lose all your damage before you can deal any.

His W is really his only offense AND defense in his kit. The rest is CC. Obviously, great CC, but even the best champs can’t do much without at least a little bit of damage potential.

The reason I like Nautilus’ W is because during team fights it seems counter intuitive to attack the tank in order to get rid of his shield. So by making his W both his offense and defense, it encourages enemy teams to treat him like the tank he is and attack him or suffer the consequences.

But in that same vein, if you are attacked just a single time or maybe twice, the shield dissipates, leaving you with zero damage, thus relying entirely on your team to sweep up the team fight with only your CC to help you.

My suggestion would be have the shield last 10 seconds. And then the damage lasts 10 seconds or 2-3 seconds after your shield is destroyed, whichever comes first.
I agree with you entirely, it'd be great if the DoT was independent of the shield in some way.

Would you mind if I quoted some of your post to add to the original post? I feel like it'd provide a more complete summary of his issues with W.


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Arrevax

Senior Member

03-26-2013

I like your proposed changes, OP. It makes me sad to see a character with the Jungler and Tank tags be nearly incapable of either at the start of the game. It takes a full rune page to run him effectively...
The W damage/shield issue is indeed in need of a fix. I wonder if it's possible to just make the damage passive, or even the shield itself (think of Malphite's passive, but weaker). While that doesn't solve his excessive, nonsensical squishiness during early game, it would help him a little.


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FrozenIndustry

Member

03-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrevax View Post
I like your proposed changes, OP. It makes me sad to see a character with the Jungler and Tank tags be nearly incapable of either at the start of the game. It takes a full rune page to run him effectively...
The W damage/shield issue is indeed in need of a fix. I wonder if it's possible to just make the damage passive, or even the shield itself (think of Malphite's passive, but weaker). While that doesn't solve his excessive, nonsensical squishiness during early game, it would help him a little.
The problem, if the damage was passive, you know Riot would weaken it even further, since it'd be constantly active. I think that the shield itself is hefty enough with enough health, maybe bumping it up to 15% from 10% bonus health would be nice, but I can live with where it's at. What I'd prefer is something akin to what Onimus Terlain suggested, with the damage persisting even if the shield is destroyed prematurely.


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Arrevax

Senior Member

03-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenIndustry View Post
The problem, if the damage was passive, you know Riot would weaken it even further, since it'd be constantly active. I think that the shield itself is hefty enough with enough health, maybe bumping it up to 15% from 10% bonus health would be nice, but I can live with where it's at. What I'd prefer is something akin to what Onimus Terlain suggested, with the damage persisting even if the shield is destroyed prematurely.
I'm pretty sure it would be far from overpowered, but you are right about Riot... They are on a "shifting power" trend, rather than direct nerfing/buffing. I do like the idea of letting the damage persist like you mentioned, though I do wonder if its current form will last long enough for Nautilus to get an auto in on an enemy or two.


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FrozenIndustry

Member

03-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrevax View Post
I'm pretty sure it would be far from overpowered, but you are right about Riot... They are on a "shifting power" trend, rather than direct nerfing/buffing. I do like the idea of letting the damage persist like you mentioned, though I do wonder if its current form will last long enough for Nautilus to get an auto in on an enemy or two.
The other issue that goes with that is how terribly slow Naut's attack animation is. I think it attributes well to the power of swinging a giant anchor, even if damage-wise it doesn't really feel like it right now.

If both the shield and DoT buff persisted for a max of 10 seconds, but were independent of one another, I'd be happy. Similarly to how Garen's Q can still apply to an attack even after the speed boost has run out in early levels.


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FrozenIndustry

Member

03-26-2013

A quick note, I've updated the original post with the problems listed by Onimus Terlain, in the event that any Reds pick up on this thread, or so new posters have a more detailed idea of the issues Naut faces.


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Ghostvoider Rick

Senior Member

03-26-2013

You do bring up a good point, and I was watching a video the other day, and Nautilus could not even jungles past the blue buff, which is quite the disappointment. Ever since they made the jungle more difficult in season 3, Nautilus has dropped a bit, but people are turning to the field of him being an ap tank/ ap support.


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