Aegis of the Legion is too powerful on ARAM

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SylianEUW

Senior Member

03-28-2013

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Originally Posted by AlexDnD2 View Post
You need runic for balance. APs are crazy strong already with their retarded poke.
If this is true, it might be a good point. I'm not so sure I agree with it, though. Sure, some APs are probably too strong due to their excessive poke, at least if the enemy team lacks hard engages, eg Lux, Nidalee, Xerath etc. I don't think APs in general are too strong, though. Riot could create some new single target MR items to make poke weaker, perhaps some kind of item that gives you a recharging shield if you haven't been hit by any spells in a while? That would help vs poke, but not so much vs burst. They could remake Banshee's Veil into that, or create an alternative to Banshee's Veil, I suppose.


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SylianEUW

Senior Member

03-28-2013

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Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
Although with that said, I don't think that Aegis and Bulwark are so game-breakingly powerful that they warrant removal from the shop.
It's not just about them being powerful, although I do believe that they are overall the best items in the game for ARAM. No, it's not just about the power, but also about adding gameplay vs power without gameplay. Aegis of the Legion is an item that adds a ton of power but not much gameplay. You can't really stop the aura by focusing down the target, since it's often the tankiest champion that gets Aegis. Furthermore, you can't always counter-build it. Sure, some champions probably would have gotten Last Whisper/Void Staff anyway, but not every champ has that luxury. How often do you get Void Staff on Shen?

It creates a situation where you don't really need to counter-build the enemy team, you just always get Aegis and maybe Bulwark on your tankiest champion, pretty much. If you don't have a tanky champion, you might even get it on a fairly squishy one, because it's just that good. Chances are you won't, since few people would sacrifice their own fun for the benefit of the team unless it's ranked or a tournament, but if you were trying to optimize your chances of winning, you might. Isn't that a sign of a broken item?

Now, I'm not saying that this item is broken in every game mode. On other game modes, the fact that you're seldom grouped up as 5 helps, and the fact that the health regen is not as useful helps as well. In ARAM, you're usually 5, and health regen is a much stronger stat.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

03-28-2013

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Originally Posted by SylianEUW View Post
It creates a situation where you don't really need to counter-build the enemy team, you just always get Aegis and maybe Bulwark on your tankiest champion, pretty much.
A Bulwark is NOT a singular counter to a team.
Your front liners are still going to have to build Chainvests and Negatrons, and your dps backline should still be considering something like QSS or Mallet/Rylais as well if they're getting dived.

Also, I think you overrate the regeneration from Bulwark.
Yes, the sustain is nice, but its still just a small amount of HP5. You need a champion like Alistar or Sona (or both, lategame) on your team for me to consider the team as having actual "sustain".


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Zielmann

Senior Member

03-28-2013

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Originally Posted by SylianEUW View Post
It's not just about them being powerful, although I do believe that they are overall the best items in the game for ARAM. No, it's not just about the power, but also about adding gameplay vs power without gameplay. Aegis of the Legion is an item that adds a ton of power but not much gameplay. You can't really stop the aura by focusing down the target, since it's often the tankiest champion that gets Aegis. Furthermore, you can't always counter-build it. Sure, some champions probably would have gotten Last Whisper/Void Staff anyway, but not every champ has that luxury. How often do you get Void Staff on Shen?
How often would you get void staff on Shen regardless of the existence of Bulwark? Please try to keep the arguments and examples realistic. You can't say that bulwark is stifling Shen's item options because he can't do damage against it without a void staff. His job isn't to run out there do deal tons of damage. It is totally viable for anything playing as an AP carry to buy a Void staff. Similarly, there are no drawbacks to an AD carry buying Last Whisper.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

03-28-2013

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Originally Posted by Zielmann View Post
How often would you get void staff on Shen regardless of the existence of Bulwark? Please try to keep the arguments and examples realistic. You can't say that bulwark is stifling Shen's item options because he can't do damage against it without a void staff. His job isn't to run out there do deal tons of damage. It is totally viable for anything playing as an AP carry to buy a Void staff. Similarly, there are no drawbacks to an AD carry buying Last Whisper.
Friend, you're giving me a strange desire to buy Shen and go AP with Voidstaff/Lichbane in a blind PG game.
Pls stahp before my temptation wins. I still need to buy flat CDR runes.


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Zielmann

Senior Member

03-29-2013

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Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
Friend, you're giving me a strange desire to buy Shen and go AP with Voidstaff/Lichbane in a blind PG game.
Pls stahp before my temptation wins. I still need to buy flat CDR runes.
I'm not going to outright say that it isn't viable. I mean, he does scale with AP. His ult shield would become godly... I'll just say that his 1.1 overall AP ratio on damage-dealing abilities is a tad sub-par compared to that of a dedicated caster.

The real question: would you stack more AP on top of the VS/LB combo, or would the rest of the items be more standard tanky?


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SylianEUW

Senior Member

03-29-2013

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Originally Posted by HaIfhearted View Post
Also, I think you overrate the regeneration from Bulwark.
Aegis of the Legion has the highest health regen from an item in the game, if you consider the aura. 50 hp/5 is really good. All of Aegis' stats are good.


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Beravin

Senior Member

03-29-2013

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Originally Posted by SylianEUW View Post
All of Aegis' stats are good.
That's the point I've been trying to make. The problem with our current MR items is that most of them have stats / effects that we do not want, and we need to pay that extra gold to get something we can barely use in the first place. Why would I pick up a Banshee's Veil when I could care less for its mana / shield? I'll just buy a Bulwark and get exactly what I want.


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HaIfhearted

Senior Member

03-29-2013

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Originally Posted by Zielmann View Post
The real question: would you stack more AP on top of the VS/LB combo, or would the rest of the items be more standard tanky?
Depends on how bad the enemy team is.
If they really sucked, I could see myself going trololol Nashors+Deathcap.
Otherwise I'd throw in some bulk to not be totally worthless.


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SylianEUW

Senior Member

03-29-2013

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Originally Posted by Beravin View Post
That's the point I've been trying to make. The problem with our current MR items is that most of them have stats / effects that we do not want, and we need to pay that extra gold to get something we can barely use in the first place. Why would I pick up a Banshee's Veil when I could care less for its mana / shield? I'll just buy a Bulwark and get exactly what I want.
I do agree with you on this. Riot could make a new MR items for tank that isn't Bulwark, though. Hexdrinker is really good for physical attackers, and Abyssal works for some APs, but some tanks lack good MR options, such as Shen. Shen could get Wit's End, I suppose, but that's kind of both an offensive and a defensive item. There is no good pure defensive item for MR for Shen, other than Bulwark. Even then, Bulwark is only partly MR.

So yeah, Riot could create some new anti-MR item for ARAM.