Journey Into The Freljord III: The Troll King

First Riot Post
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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Hit Monkey View Post
Part of the problem I've had with many of the comments in this thread, partly explaining why several of my earlier responses here towards them, is that there is the continued assumption that his gameplay is being changed.

Let's for a moment set aside the thematic, lore, and visual issues. I'm done talking about that, I'm sticking to the Gameplay here.

With regard to the gameplay, people enter, see the original posts, and immediately make the assumption that his gameplay is going to be radically altered, when if they look at the Red Posts, they would see this is not the case.

The gameplay changes are to Quality of Life. Riot has made a point of stating that they're satisfied with how he plays, the changes in this regard are to improve upon them. Maybe a buff here, a nerf there, a tweak.

What I'm trying to say is that whether Trundle is a scrawny diseased ugly runt, or a beefy rugged icy king, that gameplay is going to stick.
The problem now, is that his gameplay will no longer stick to his appearance. Trundle's kit isn't about brawn and ice, it's about turning tables, about getting into trouble and getting out of it with a sliver of health.

Why would a Troll King need to steal the strength of his enemies? Shouldn't he have strength of his own? Why is degenerating and regenerating a thing with him? Why isn't he all about slowing people or doing other ice-related things? How come he doesn't feel like the big powerhouse he looks like? Why does this Troll King have an underdog's kit?


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PrinceOfTheCrows

Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
The problem now, is that his gameplay will no longer stick to his appearance. Trundle's kit isn't about brawn and ice, it's about turning tables, about getting into trouble and getting out of it with a sliver of health.

Why would a Troll King need to steal the strength of his enemies? Shouldn't he have strength of his own? Why is degenerating and regenerating a thing with him? Why isn't he all about slowing people or doing other ice-related things? How come he doesn't feel like the big powerhouse he looks like? Why does this Troll King have an underdog's kit?

Troll King need to steal the strength of his enemies?= It will likely be more his club stealing the strength of his enemies then him self. Plus as it says in his background all ready " Trolls have never been well-regarded beings on Valoran. Generally speaking, they are barbaric, cannibalistic, and sneaky." So this will work with all troll not just Trundle.

Why isn't he all about slowing people or doing other ice-related things? Well that will be the hole point of Pillar of Filth(likely be called Pillar of Ice or some thing.Contaminate will all so work great as a ice-related things as it is(just need a new name and make it a ice field.)Rabid Bite will likley work more with him being a troll with raze sharp teeth and a magic club.
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Why is degenerating and regenerating a thing with him?=Well the degenerating will not be but the regenerating will be as once again this is all trolls.

How come he doesn't feel like the big powerhouse he looks like?=I dont now as I have let to play him after the rework. I can only say how he is now and he is very much a powerhouse in early game. and late game if build right.

Why does this Troll King have an underdog's kit?=Because you are looking at the wrong kit?As I have never seen Trundle kit as.....what did you call it? A underdog's kit?No never saw it like that. I all was saw it as a troll coming out of the grass to bit and hit them in the face tell they are die or running and if they run then you place a pillar in there face so you can hit them again kit.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheCrows View Post
Troll King need to steal the strength of his enemies?= It will likely be more his club stealing the strength of his enemies then him self. Plus as it says in his background all ready " Trolls have never been well-regarded beings on Valoran. Generally speaking, they are barbaric, cannibalistic, and sneaky." So this will work with all troll not just Trundle.
So this club of ice is stealing strength...why? When you look at ice in the context of a video game, do you think "oh, this probably has something to do with stat-stealing"? No, chances are, it's something along the lines of "slowing" or "stunning"--hell, let's look at the other "frost" champions for these inherently ice-like mechanics: Anivia? Check. Ashe? Check. Sejuani? Check. Pillar of Filth is the only part of Trundle's kit that really translates over to this new theme--everything else is more inherent to the scrappy, stat-stealing, cursed Troll.

Which also brings up the question again--"Why does this mighty Troll King need to rely on stealing the strength of his enemies to get by? He's a huge dude, why doesn't he have strength of his own?"

Quote:
Why isn't he all about slowing people or doing other ice-related things? Well that will be the hole point of Pillar of Filth(likely be called Pillar of Ice or some thing.Contaminate will all so work great as a ice-related things as it is(just need a new name and make it a ice field.)Rabid Bite will likley work more with him being a troll with raze sharp teeth and a magic club.
This is something I've seen a bit of, the whole "oh don't worry, just give it a new name like Frostbite or Ice Rink or Heat Sucker XD" argument, to which I must point out that name changes don't change mechanics. Contaminate itself doesn't really work either--so this guy surrounds an area in ice, and instead of this ice slowing down his opponents or something else ice-like, it increases his attackspeed, movespeed, and tenacity?" Visual effects won't cut it.

His kit was mostly disease-based, about the degeneration and the regeneration, about using his curse to sap the strength of his enemies to make up for what he lacked. This new appearance doesn't have any of that--and even worse, it implies mechanics and gameplay that aren't even a part of his kit.
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Quote:
Why is degenerating and regenerating a thing with him?=Well the degenerating will not be but the regenerating will be as once again this is all trolls.
Since they're not changing his kit--just making a few QoL changes--degeneration is still a factor. Yet degeneration is not a factor in this new visual design. His new appearance isn't even an adequate indicator of his gameplay. Are you seeing the problem here? It's like giving Kha'Zix's kit to Garen--would you associate that sort of jumpy, bursty gameplay with that broadsword-wielding Demacian quarterback?

Quote:
How come he doesn't feel like the big powerhouse he looks like?=I dont now as I have let to play him after the rework. I can only say how he is now and he is very much a powerhouse in early game. and late game if build right.
Again, they're not changing his kit--just making a few QoL changes. And again, let's take a look at the components of Trundle's kit:

Innate- regeneration on-kill (kind of a weird way to implement Trundle's regeneration and I'd change it if I had the opportunity, to something more reactive to reflect the actual effects that constantly sloughing wounds off of your body would have--ie. a stacking regeneration that is triggered upon taking damage, but that's not the case so we'll roll with what we've got)

Q- AD-stealing autoattack modifier

W- area-based attackspeed, movespeed, and tenacity boost

E- area-blocking pillar with a movespeed reducing aura

R- percentile-based armor/MR steal

Does this scream "overwhelming opponents with brutal, physical strength"? Does this kit convey the arctic might of a Freljord champ? No--it's about making trouble (E), turning tables (Q, R), and getting out of even the stickiest situations (I, W). That's what old Trundle had to offer, and what new Trundle lacks. It's not just about getting rid of something cool and niche, it's about making a design's structural integrity suffer for stupid, lazy reasons. I don't stand for that--that's not the kind of work a team of dedicated professionals should strive for, and no amount of excuse-making or finger-pointing or deflecting can change that.

Quote:
Why does this Troll King have an underdog's kit?=Because you are looking at the wrong kit?As I have never seen Trundle kit as.....what did you call it? A underdog's kit?No never saw it like that. I all was saw it as a troll coming out of the grass to bit and hit them in the face tell they are die or running and if they run then you place a pillar in there face so you can hit them again kit.
Again--he's all about turning tables. He's about stealing his enemies' strength and making it his own. He's about looking impossible situations in the eye and letting out a "gwah hah hah!"

Again, for the reasons explained above.


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PrinceOfTheCrows

Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItemsGuy View Post
Again, they're not changing his kit--just making a few QoL changes. And again, let's take a look at the components of Trundle's kit:

Innate- regeneration on-kill (kind of a weird way to implement Trundle's regeneration and I'd change it if I had the opportunity, to something more reactive to reflect the actual effects that constantly sloughing wounds off of your body would have--ie. a stacking regeneration that is triggered upon taking damage, but that's not the case so we'll roll with what we've got)

Q- AD-stealing autoattack modifier

W- area-based attackspeed, movespeed, and tenacity boost

E- area-blocking pillar with a movespeed reducing aura

R- percentile-based armor/MR steal

Does this scream "overwhelming opponents with brutal, physical strength"? Does this kit convey the arctic might of a Freljord champ? No--it's about making trouble (E), turning tables (Q, R), and getting out of even the stickiest situations (I, W). That's what old Trundle had to offer, and what new Trundle lacks. It's not just about getting rid of something cool and niche, it's about making a design's structural integrity suffer for stupid, lazy reasons. I don't stand for that--that's not the kind of work a team of dedicated professionals should strive for, and no amount of excuse-making or finger-pointing or deflecting can change that.
Does this scream "overwhelming opponents with brutal, physical strength"? The answer to this is yes.for me.
Innate.Trundle fights by hit thing with a club or biting(brutal, physical strength) and gets health when they die. I love when in a team fight when the enemy try's to take me down fonly to find out I got a lot of health back because one or two of there guys die around me. It can be very overwhelming.

Q Brutal, physical strength at it best!

W.Let you hit them more with your physical strength why getting you to them faster. Tenacity boost makes it hard for them to stop me from using my physical strength.

E.Makes it easier to catch up with them if they try to run because I was to overwhelming for them or so I can overwhelm one person at a time.

R. Make it easier to overwhelm a opponents with brutal, physical strength do to stealing what stop it. Plus it make it hard for them to overwhelm you.

At the end of the day I say it simple tomato or tomatoe thing.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheCrows View Post
Does this scream "overwhelming opponents with brutal, physical strength"? The answer to this is yes.for me.
Innate.Trundle fights by hit thing with a club or biting(brutal, physical strength) and gets health when they die. I love when in a team fight when the enemy try's to take me down fonly to find out I got a lot of health back because one or two of there guys die around me. It can be very overwhelming.
What you have described here, is grabbing spoils. There is a difference here, between crushing somebody with impossible force, and snagging a bit of health when something strong dies (with more health for stronger things--underdog!). You're also using "overwhelming" very loosely. If I were to use it like you, then Soraka has overwhelming strength, because she's healing her allies so much that it's overwhelming!

Also, the healing itself can't be considered overwhelming--it's a reward for overcoming obstacles, and allows you to scrape by otherwise perilous situations (although it could be implemented in a much, much better way).

Quote:
Q Brutal, physical strength at it best!
What, stealing an enemies strength to make up for your lack of it? I don't think we're looking at the same kits here--either that, or you're being stubborn and crawling through whatever hole you can find, making up your own definitions for words as you see fit.

Quote:
W.Let you hit them more with your physical strength why getting you to them faster. Tenacity boost makes it hard for them to stop me from using my physical strength.
Again, this is less about "GGRRR STRONG" physical strength and brute force, and more about gutsy, scrambling scrappiness. It helps him get into and out of tough situations. If it were, say, a flat AD and armor pen increase, I might see where you're going--but he's just getting faster and scramblier. That's not might, that's guts. That's one way in which one would convey "guts" through mechanics in a video game. In English? It's not increasing his hitting power, it's not increasing the physical impact he creates (which Q helps with but that strength isn't coming from him), it's not physical might--no more than Master Yi swinging his sword really fast. If force = mass x speed, then mass is the physical strength here. A parallel equation would be DPS = AD x aspd. Get what I'm saying here?

Every mechanic is a translation of something that already exists. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, though--you're talking more though wishful thinking, than an understanding of mechanics and what they represent (which I, as an educated game designer--or hell, even a gamer that pays attention to and analyzes the games he plays--possess).

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E.Makes it easier to catch up with them if they try to run because I was to overwhelming for them or so I can overwhelm one person at a time.
E is solely utilitarian--no physical might or overwhelming involved. Which leads us back to prior points--if you're using it to catch up to them, you going to continue to hit them a bunch of times with your club, not bash them apart with monstrous strength (like, say, Darius or Vi would). So not only does E not involve physical might whatsoever, it doesn't aid in the use of physical might, because physical might was not being used in the first place. The force = mass x speed again. Q isn't his own strength (he steals it, and it's temporary), and W only increases his speed, not his strength.

Quote:
R. Make it easier to overwhelm a opponents with brutal, physical strength do to stealing what stop it. Plus it make it hard for them to overwhelm you.
But if you were overwhelming them with brutal, physical strength in the first place, why would you need to do any stat-stealing whatsoever? Surely, this ability's purpose isn't actually to turn tables! Surely, sapping their defenses is more relevant to big muscles and brute force than it is to some sort of degenerative disease! You're throwing around words you seem to not know the meaning of. And again, every time you use the word "overwhelming" here, you're not referring to "overwhelming, brute strength," you're referring to "overwhelming somebody by hitting somebody many, many times." That's the difference between DK's Donkey Punch and that really fast kicking thing that Fox does (in the context of Smash Bros.), or the difference between slower, harder-hitting attacks and weaker, faster ones in pretty much every sort of hack-and-slash.

Quote:
At the end of the day I say it simple tomato or tomatoe thing.
Not at all--you refusing to understand the information that is present and replacing it with your own skewed understanding of both definitions and game mechanics to suit your own needs is what's happening here. If I were to take your approach, I could say that Vayne is a support because she "supports her team by dealing a lot of damage," or that smoking excessive amounts of marijuana was healthy for me because healthy things are good for me and smoking marijuana makes me feel good.

It's a sort of twisted logic that relies heavily on both a deliberate misinterpretation of hard data and (over)using definitions of words so loose it should be considered criminal. What you've done here is "well you said his kit isn't about overwhelming people with brutal, physical strength so I'm going to use those words a lot and usually not for their intended definition so it kind of feels like I'm right."

If you continue to go down this road, I can't guarantee that you'll be taken seriously by terribly many people. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and responding to this but if all you want to do is try to warp and wedge your argument through whatever crevasse you find--no matter how small or oddly-shaped--then feel free to not waste your time with another response. I know I won't.


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FurryKittenSoup

Senior Member

03-31-2013

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Originally Posted by Ophirr View Post
"biased butthurt fanboys?" You're not even contributing to the conversation, you're just looking to rage against a group of people. If you don't have constructive information to add, please remain quiet.
thats not wat i meant. i just wanted u guys to realise that u r biased because u r butthurt.

PS. just in case u didnt know being biased is a bad thing in any aspect of life.


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FurryKittenSoup

Senior Member

03-31-2013

wow all these downvotes on positive comments about the rework. u trundle fanboys need to stop being butthurt. its turned u into little children.


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Slarg232

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
When you look at ice in the context of a video game, do you think "oh, this probably has something to do with stat-stealing"? No, chances are, it's something along the lines of "slowing" or "stunning"
What about Anivia, who is a PHOENIX? Those are FIRE based.

You are attempting to put logic where there is none.....


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MrSmileyy

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Senior Member

03-31-2013

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Originally Posted by Slarg232 View Post
What about Anivia, who is a PHOENIX? Those are FIRE based.

You are attempting to put logic where there is none.....
she is a cryopheonix...they made an ice pheonix, totally not relevant. I remember a game having a shadow pheonix too. The point was, trundle had a meaning to why he had the skills he did and why they worked the way they did. Assuming his kit is very similar, some of it wont make sense anymore (if it isn't removed)


My point is still, if they tried to service karma fans even a bit, and promised not to change heimer too much for his, why are the trundle fans who like him now pretty much being kicked in teeth and left with nothing.


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ItemsGuy

Senior Member

03-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slarg232 View Post
What about Anivia, who is a PHOENIX? Those are FIRE based.

You are attempting to put logic where there is none.....
You just clotheslined your own argument here, in true WWE fashion.

Anivia is called the "Cryophoenix," telling the player that "hey, you know phoenixes? yeah, well she's like that, except with ice." So, what else do phoenixes have to them besides fire? Well, they are birds, and they do rise back up when they die. Guess what Anivia is/does!