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An Idea I'd like to hear Morello's opinon on

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ThermoFusion

Senior Member

03-22-2013

I'm not expecting Riot to suddenly change anything because of my idea, but as a would-be game designer (I have the college degree but not the career yet) it would be really awesome to hear the professionals' opinions of my thoughts.

I've heard Morello's explanations about what was not working about Karma's old passive, and I understand his concerns, but I don't believe it's a lost cause. Karma's old passive does not have to be maintained in it's original state. And I have an idea that may be able to address the 'free power' and counter-play concerns of the old passive.

Consider a tried and true champion: Blitzcrank. Blitz has very amusing gameplay potential with the sudden sheild boost at low health. But it lasts for only a few seconds, just long enough to turn the situation around and then get out. And the only time I've heard anyone call this ability bad for the game is when they are crying in despair because the enemy blitz just got away again!

Imagine if Karma had an ability like that, When her health drops below a certain %, she gains a momentary power boost. It lasts just long enough to attempt turning the tides, and then it's gone, the ability goes on cooldown and Karma is back to normal. She still gets that Karmic 'get back at you' punch, but she can't just hang out in lane all day sporting a constant free chunk of AP. It rewards Karma players for taking risks while at high health, but does not encourage hanging around when already at low health, because unlike Blitz this ability won't prevent the damage.

And the power boost doesn't have to be AP, it could be an instant mantra or spell cooldown, or anything that gives her that brief moment of strength.

And this ability does provide counterplay. And opponent can harrass or burst the enemy Karma down til her 'Karma-power' activates, then back off a few seconds before going back in.

I believe this idea would not only please Karma fans, but could offer strategic options while maintaining a gamplay balance in similar fashion to Blitzcrank's passive.

Also compare to Anivia, Karthus and Zyra. There is a strong precedence for Mages successfully implementing low health based passives in interesting ways. I think it's fair to say Karma could too.

Am I on the right track? Does this begin to address the problems with the old passive?

And I do like the current new passive, And I don't think it should be removed, but I think it could be moved onto her R, while something like this idea fills the passive slot.

I'm not saying this idea is perfect, but I feel with some discussion with experienced designers there is something worth considering here.

Please Morello, I have always liked your perspective on gameplay design, and it would mean a lot if I could hear your opinions on my idea. Even if you totally disagree with me, I would like to better understand what you consider good gameplay.

Thanks for reading!


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TMTrainer

Senior Member

03-22-2013

I liked her old passive, and I don't see real harm in adding in this along with this new passive. As long as it scales with level (the passive's AP give-a-way) and that its not super high scaling, I fell this would bring back a little bit of Karma flavor. This also might round her early and mid game better.


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Cerxi

Senior Member

03-22-2013

I actually like this. Specifically, the plan that meets with my approval is that, knocking her health down past a certain point (25%? 10%?), she immediately gains a charge of Mantra, and the passive goes on cooldown for x minutes. Mantra's her defining feature, let's use it


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CrazedPorcupine

Senior Member

03-22-2013

Like Cerxi, I like the though of suddenly getting a free mantra charge for a sudden comeback when at low health. A 2-3 minute cooldown would be a good idea for something like this.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-22-2013

I can't believe I didn't think about a time-limited boost. That would be so much better than nothing. I don't know if I feel an extra mantra charge would give back some of the old feel though. How about something similar to Karthus? When she dies, she refuses to go down! She gets so and long to freely cast spells, maybe even a limited amount of mantra'd spells, before she dies? That would rock! The time limit ending in death might even feel even better than the old passive! Knowing she has been mortally wounded, she keeps her heart beating by force of will.

I think I am in love with that idea. It could be done in so many ways. You could tune cooldowns, ratios, bases, mantra charges to ensure it is not too powerful. It could last for a limited amount of time, it could render her invulnerable, making her flare like a dying fire, empowering her abilities, or take power from them to keep herself alive. It could be timed based on abilities used, have a flat duration, or even give her an opportunity to return to life if she is healed, excluding the summoner spell I guess. If that was the case, the enemy should also have the opportunity to finish her off.

Egads, this would just be so awesome. I don't even care how powerful or restricted it is, though it could come with awesome particles (subtle or flaring). It would make me feel Karma is Karma no matter how it is executed. I am so excited! Imagine if Riot actually considers it!?

*cough* Feel free to make other suggestions if you don't like it. I feel like I struck gold though! I can't believe I'm this excited... I wasn't intending to beat my own drum here, but this just came from nowhere. Thoughts? XD


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Zonacain

Senior Member

03-22-2013

This is a fantastic idea.


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Mihlo

Senior Member

03-23-2013

Quote:
Severian NA:
I can't believe I didn't think about a time-limited boost. That would be so much better than nothing. I don't know if I feel an extra mantra charge would give back some of the old feel though. How about something similar to Karthus? When she dies, she refuses to go down! She gets so and long to freely cast spells, maybe even a limited amount of mantra'd spells, before she dies? That would rock! The time limit ending in death might even feel even better than the old passive! Knowing she has been mortally wounded, she keeps her heart beating by force of will.

I think I am in love with that idea. It could be done in so many ways. You could tune cooldowns, ratios, bases, mantra charges to ensure it is not too powerful. It could last for a limited amount of time, it could render her invulnerable, making her flare like a dying fire, empowering her abilities, or take power from them to keep herself alive. It could be timed based on abilities used, have a flat duration, or even give her an opportunity to return to life if she is healed, excluding the summoner spell I guess. If that was the case, the enemy should also have the opportunity to finish her off.

Egads, this would just be so awesome. I don't even care how powerful or restricted it is, though it could come with awesome particles (subtle or flaring). It would make me feel Karma is Karma no matter how it is executed. I am so excited! Imagine if Riot actually considers it!?

*cough* Feel free to make other suggestions if you don't like it. I feel like I struck gold though! I can't believe I'm this excited... I wasn't intending to beat my own drum here, but this just came from nowhere. Thoughts? XD


Now I'm imagining her being consumed in soulfire and becoming something similar to a Protoss Archon for a limited time.

Actually that'd be a cool skin idea too..... Soulfire Karma.... has a nice ring to it.


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Firellius

Senior Member

03-23-2013

Quote:
ThermoFusion:

I believe this idea would not only please Karma fans, but could offer strategic options while maintaining a gamplay balance in similar fashion to Blitzcrank's passive.


I think what would please Karma fans the most is not having their champion deleted to make room for an entirely new concept.


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ThermoFusion

Senior Member

03-23-2013

Quote:
Firellius:
I think what would please Karma fans the most is not having their champion deleted to make room for an entirely new concept.


I agree. The new kit is essentially a new champ, and I really miss the original. But Riot has made it clear they felt that the original kit had unrepairable problems. I don't agree with that assessment, but we can't fight the tide. But what we can do, is try to ensure that the new Karma is as awesome as possible, and wherever possible try to retain aspects of what was awesome about the original Karma. That's what I'm trying to do with this thread.

In the visual upgrade Riot has already responded to players request to add back her fans (albeit only in her dance), and have worked on adding full dresses back into the Traditional and Sakura skins. But those are easier to compromise with since visuals don't effect her gameplay balance.

Convincing Riot to change anything in the new kit's abilities is much less likely, but I do believe there is room to compromise. The idea I presented in this thread is an attempt to answer the problems Morello had pointed out, his (or any other Rioter's) response (if any) will hopefully let us know if Riot is going to allow any dialogue on the matter.


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Åntræus

Recruiter

03-23-2013

Quote:
ThermoFusion:

Imagine if Karma had an ability like that, When her health drops below a certain %, she gains a momentary power boost. It lasts just long enough to attempt turning the tides, and then it's gone, the ability goes on cooldown and Karma is back to normal. She still gets that Karmic 'get back at you' punch, but she can't just hang out in lane all day sporting a constant free chunk of AP. It rewards Karma players for taking risks while at high health, but does not encourage hanging around when already at low health, because unlike Blitz this ability won't prevent the damage.

And the power boost doesn't have to be AP, it could be an instant mantra or spell cooldown, or anything that gives her that brief moment of strength.

And this ability does provide counterplay. And opponent can harrass or burst the enemy Karma down til her 'Karma-power' activates, then back off a few seconds before going back in.


This is a very good idea and if perhaps this was a passive on Mantra I think it would fit in nicely with her kit, make it more rounded. A burst of power, just when you need it most.


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