Quinn Feedback *Warning long post*

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Z0nne

Senior Member

03-23-2013

Yea i know is 120% but the thing is, if the enemy dashes is going to take a while to catch up even with 120% speed, some enemies like renekton can double dash and if they have any CC Valor is useless

Then Quinn transforms into Valor as a finisher (Because nobody wants to initiate as a squishy bird...ever) BUT if you use it as a finisher all of Valor skills are on cooldown!

So bad finisher, bad initiation, lost of passive and 2min cooldown! >.>

I agree with everything else you said


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Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

03-24-2013

Don't get me wrong, I think the ult has some uses especially when you are building AD bruiser and it's 1v1 so you don't have to worry about being kited... but apart from that Valor form is almost always a drop in combat effectiveness as it gets no extra damage on abilities, tankiness, shares cooldowns, etc. The only things you get are moderate MS and AS boosts for trading all those other things like ranged autoattacks, a passive, and an escape (even if it is buggy and generally pretty terrible at actually escaping).


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Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

03-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galgus View Post
I kind of hate her because of her blind and disengage,

I play Jungle AD Yi, and a blind is equivalent to a stun unless I run away with under half my health and make no further team-fight contribution.

I really wish blinds where just a next attack* misses thing, they shutdown ADCs who need to commit to a fight way too hard.

*(Or next two or three.)
Teemo's blind lasts 2.5 seconds, which is far longer. His disengage is also much better with his ability to drop a shroom for the slow and move quick out. If Quinn's disengage didn't bring her into melee range, or she was immune to CC during it, then her disengage would be arguably better depending on the situation and when you realized you had to run.

AP Teemo also does a truckload more dps than Quinn, who quite honestly does not scale very well into late game for being a squishy short-but-still-ranged champ.


Also, in general I am not a huge fan of AD Yi. If you aren't completely decimating the enemy, it is really hard to make him accomplish a lot as a squishy melee champ. While his jungle clears, especially later on, are very good, the only CC he brings is dependent upon bringing exhaust. I much prefer junglers with a hard CC or at least a slow so you can really secure kills.


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fletche00

Senior Member

03-25-2013

Really????

"Make her un-targetable when she vaults" Are you kidding me? So you want to give an ADC w/ a blind and amazing dueling potential, the ability to dodge spells? So if somebody tries to ult her, or AA her, she can just vault and avoid it all? That is completely unrealistic, and no ADC should have the ability to do that.

"Every ADC outscales her mid game" Ya, you are right, but she can render 2-3 of their AA useless w/ Blind, which completely makes up for them having a higher DPS than she does. The base damage on Q is also much higher than most other ADC skill shots, but the scaling is not so bad, that is the tradeoff, She gains massive utility from the skill, but not all the damage behind it like others.

"Her Ult is worthless in Teamfights" Yes & No, Quinn is nothing w/o her Ultimate, and even riot commented on how you can see good Quinns from Bad. If you ult in the middle of a teamfight, well you deserve to die, you are an ADC, you shouldnt be in their face during a TF, let your team soak damage, and use your human form, its when you see somebody run off that you ult, chase them down, and assassinate them. You can also use it to split push w/ a shiv, then jump to the next lane to engage.

What I do agree w/ -

Her passive is unpredictable, and you rely on a random mark to make up for your dps, and sometimes, it just doesnt come, there needs to be a way to tell Valor who to mark next, would just make Quinn feel much better.

Her Blind is a wide spell, the AOE from it is also quite wide, but even if your marker doesnt hit a minion when you fire it, it still somehow grazes a minion to the side and causes it to pop prematurely, this is quite annoying when trying to poke out in bottom lane.

All in all, she is a great champion, looking forward to owning more champs w/ her.


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KiserSaySo

Senior Member

03-25-2013

Personally for me her Vault is a neat mechanic, definitely needs work.

thinking about her "lore" I think a quick rework is a much better idea.

E- Valor takes to the skies and dives the enemy. Enemy is knocked back stunning them for .5 seconds. Valor marks target as vulnerable.
This dive has more synergy than her current vault. Put the range of the knock back outside of Quinn's AA range. This balances the ability so whoever is displaced, they are not overwhelmed.
It uses the E as a primarily defensive ability which is what we all consider her current E is.
This way Quinn gets the defense and can relocate an opponent which is exactly what she needs. Keep the dmg the same but maybe add a second or two on the CD.

Obviously it could be used as an offensive spell too but at a higher risk. (using a flash


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Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

03-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by fletche00 View Post
Really????

"Make her un-targetable when she vaults" Are you kidding me? So you want to give an ADC w/ a blind and amazing dueling potential, the ability to dodge spells? So if somebody tries to ult her, or AA her, she can just vault and avoid it all? That is completely unrealistic, and no ADC should have the ability to do that.
Her vault is her escape mechanism, but it almost always makes you more vulnerable than if you just tried to run away instead of using it. That is an escape mechanic that isn't working. Graves, Caitlin, Corki, Tristana, Vayne, etc all have a dash mechanics that takes them away from danger without ever making them more vulnerable. They are all also much quicker, so they suffer less of a DPS loss while doing it. In return for bringing her into more danger instead of just taking her out of danger, she gets a passive proc, which you may or may not use depending on the situation, but in the end it is still a higher dps loss for using the escape mechanic than other ADC because the vault animation is so much longer (slower, more distance to cover going there and back).

Also, if you read the whole line, I said if not the whole duration then at least immune to CC until she vaults off the enemy champ. This way she at least doesn't get flung or on-hit stunned as the prize for using her escape mechanic instead of actually escaping.

As a side note, I would also be okay with the idea of making her stealthed during the vault, which would also add both more play/counterplay and make her human form something more unique among ADCs.


Quote:
"Every ADC outscales her mid game" Ya, you are right, but she can render 2-3 of their AA useless w/ Blind, which completely makes up for them having a higher DPS than she does. The base damage on Q is also much higher than most other ADC skill shots, but the scaling is not so bad, that is the tradeoff, She gains massive utility from the skill, but not all the damage behind it like others.
Quinn's Q: 230 + 65% bonus AD -- like I said, high base damage but bad scaling
Graves Buckshot: 200-340 base + 85-136% bonus AD -- much more damage
Caitlin Q: 180 base + 130% bonus -- double the scaling, so at 50 bonus AD and above she is doing more damage. That is a fairly low benchmark to hit to surpass in damage. Less than one full BF sword item.
Varus Q: 143-165 base + 100-160% AD -- Even lower base than Cait's, but even higher scaling and the longest range. And to be honest, I think this ability needs a small buff.

So damage-wise, it is pretty subpar. Yes, it also blinds, but it is only 1.5 seconds, which is pretty short for such a limited form of CC. Teemo's scales up to 2.5 seconds. Heimer's is 3 seconds. Graves' smokescreen acts very similarly to a blind, and it lasts 4 seconds.

Overall, I think Graves' and Quinn's kits are very similar and comparable. Dash chase/disengage, 525 auto attack range, ~ 1k range poke, blind/vision reduction, slow, AS steroid, AoE damage on the ult.

But Graves is markedly tankier and puts out more damage through his far better AS steroid, and both higher base and AD ratios on Q and R. He also doesn't have to rely on going melee range to take full advantage of his kit or ult. There is nothing in Quinn's kit that Graves' doesn't do as well or better, but the reverse is not true.

Quote:
"Her Ult is worthless in Teamfights" Yes & No, Quinn is nothing w/o her Ultimate, and even riot commented on how you can see good Quinns from Bad. If you ult in the middle of a teamfight, well you deserve to die, you are an ADC, you shouldnt be in their face during a TF, let your team soak damage, and use your human form, its when you see somebody run off that you ult, chase them down, and assassinate them. You can also use it to split push w/ a shiv, then jump to the next lane to engage.
You're ignoring a build path for Quinn that is AD bruiser, which would make Quinn want to dive into melee range at the enemy carries get a kill, then theoretically still be alive to pop the AoE on the ult and vault to safety.

But if we are talking about playing as an ADC, then yes her ult is pretty worthless in team fights. It gives no extra damage on Q and E, gives no defensive stat boosts so you will still die ASAP on an ADC build, only gives an AS boost at the expense of a passive, shares cooldowns with human form so you can't take advantage of a QE transform EQ burst combo, and you lose your range.

So you will never use your ult in team fights as an ADC, not even to double tap for the AoE damage because there is a few seconds cooldown on after transforming. That leaves you with human form for team fights until chasing/running time. Human form Quinn does less damage than every other ADC in the game by a fair margin. She does not scale that well with AD and her base stats/damage are not at the AD bruiser level like a Riven or Jax type champion.



All that being said, I think we should first focus on the bugs and gameplay oddities that really need to be addressed before we talk about numbers for buffs/nerfs. I think her kit will work best in top lane bruiser rather than bot lane ADC, since Riot designed her with slightly higher base damage and atrocious bonus AD ratios. I think the conversation will change a lot once these bugs and gameplay oddities are addressed.


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Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

03-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiserSaySo View Post
E- Valor takes to the skies and dives the enemy. Enemy is knocked back stunning them for .5 seconds. Valor marks target as vulnerable.
This dive has more synergy than her current vault. Put the range of the knock back outside of Quinn's AA range. This balances the ability so whoever is displaced, they are not overwhelmed.
It uses the E as a primarily defensive ability which is what we all consider her current E is.
This way Quinn gets the defense and can relocate an opponent which is exactly what she needs. Keep the dmg the same but maybe add a second or two on the CD.

Obviously it could be used as an offensive spell too but at a higher risk. (using a flash
This would reduce the complexity of the spell by a lot. Since you are no longer moving, it is (still) not a very good escape when multiple enemies are there. You would also lose all ability to chase with it. One of the reasons I was so excited to play Quinn was because of the interesting mechanics of vaulting to an enemy and away, with the final distance being based upon the original distance (enemy closer before = enemy farther after, enemy farther before = enemy closer after). To me this is a core concept of her kit, and I would hate to see it removed.


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QuoBi

Member

03-28-2013

I agree, I have been playing her top lane. This post is my response to her.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3270751


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CRC Ain

Junior Member

03-28-2013

In my opinion, the only things that need a change are: Valor's responsiveness in terms of Harrier and marking targets after you've launched your normal attack, so then the minion or champion doesn't take less damage and walks away with the mark on them, a bit of an increase in terms of attack range, the entire reason she gets mauled by champions like Vayne and Varus is because they've got an advantage when it comes to attack range, and I think this should be boosted a bit, less than Varus, but more than Vayne, fix the AD ratios of some of her abilities and maybe something to make Quinn take less damage when she performs Vault, because although it's an amazing chase / escapist ability, it allows her to be raped and stomped over by CC, or maybe untargetable during the small fraction of time in which she vaults back and forth from her target, perhaps? Oh, and try reducing her ult's cooldown by a bit, there are champions like Lux, that with enough CDR, can cast their finishers every 24 seconds. P.S: The untargetable state while Quinn / Valor uses her / his E, it can either be immune to CC or some other form of damage that she gets assassinated by.


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Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

03-29-2013

It's a little disingenuous to compare Lux and Quinn's CD on their ults. ADCs generally do not build any CDR and AD bruisers usually don't max it if they build any at all. Lux's kit is designed to be an annoying super long range harasser, but a short cooldown burst ult combo. Carries and bruisers fill a different role and damage profile and it wouldn't really make sense for a ranged carry have a 24 second CD ult, or whatever Lux gets hers down to with CDR.

I do agree Quinn's ult feels very underwhelming in team fights though.