Quinn Feedback *Warning long post*

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Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

03-21-2013

I have a lot to say about Quinn.

Concept/Model/Feel
First off, I absolutely love her character design and concept. Her high mobility, ranged dps, and overall feel captures a ranger-like character in fantasy games. You should give a raise to whoever designed her character model, because she is totally badass-looking aka thank you for a cool female warrior who does not look like people pay her for a night of fun. I also love the idea of a ranged carry transforming and diving into the fray, and I love giant birds, so conceptually Valor is a win for me. Before actually fighting another player, and just using some skills on some minions, Quinn feels epic and cool. I especially love the idea of human E, being both a chase and escape mechanic based on distance when you cast -- this little complexity adds so much depth to her gameplay that I really find enjoyable.

Bugs/Oddities
I've noticed a few wonky things about Quinn's kit that are either bugs, or just strange enough that I think they should be changed.
* If Quinn autoattacks and Valor marks a target with her passive while the crossbow bolt is in the air, the autoattack will *NOT* consume the mark. This is super wonky and really affects early game harass because your attack speed is super slow at this point in the game. Obviously the check happens at the start of the attack so the animation can be different, but it really hurts her considering you have to wait for Valor to mark something first.

* Human form Q is pretty wide. At first I thought "hey easier targeting" but really this turns into "hey, that minion was grazed and took the hit instead of going further and hitting the enemy champ". I feel the explosion radius needs to still be the same size, but the projectile hit box should be a bit smaller. In bird form, Q's radius feels a bit too small.

* Q is the first ability I max, but it is pretty bad. It has good base damage, but an almost inconsequential AD ratio that is only bonus AD. That would be okay if I got more than 1.5 seconds of blind out of it at higher levels.. but I don't. Teemo's blind is targeted and scales up to 2.5 seconds which is crazy better. Graves' vision reduction cloud (which is functionally similar to a blind) lasts like 4 seconds AND it slows.

* Vault is supposed to be your escape/chasing ability in human form, which is sorely needed for a squishy ranged champ whose dps is slightly lower dps than other carries and has a low movespeed. But against anyone with CC, this just takes you close enough to be stunned and splatted. I'm saving my E to escape that Udyr gank, but actually using it only gets me stunned. Given that I stop all dps to execute a very slow moving dash to the enemy champ and then away, I feel like I should be immune to CC during the move or at least immune to CC until after I have jumped off the enemy champ. I am not a tanky melee dashing in, I am a squishy ranged trying to keep my distance, and I feel punished for using my ability rather than rewarded in these situations which is quite often in top lane.

The worst experience I've ever had playing a champ was vs Singed as Quinn. He was naturally faster than me, had a slow, and my distance-keeping tool was only good for hurling myself into his throw. I could outrun him in bird form *if I dodged his slow and avoided his poison*, but I could never touch him

* Valor marking things sometimes doesn't occur until after I start attacking things, notably in the jungle. Overall Valor's marking AI is pretty good, but there is room for improvement here. It would also be nice if Valor always marked an enemy champ if they are in autoattack range.

* Valor is surprisingly kite-able. I'm not sure what exactly it is, but I expected a Yi-style ult ability to stick to somebody, but if anyone looks at me funny I almost stop moving completely. Valor's melee attack range also seems pretty short. I have learned the hard way that most of the time I do not want to use my ult because they will get away and live while I get kited and die where if I was still human form I would have finished them off.

* On paper, activating the ult again for the damage is awesome. Realistically, I almost never want to be bird form in team fights, and I can't double tap for some quick AoE damage because of the 3ish second cooldown. This makes me without an ult in a lot of situations because bird form is such a liability.

* From the perspective of "feel", activating her W for vision is a very cool and super awesome thing. But it *feels* very weak and lame because the sight duration is pretty short, and it feels the opposite of epic to press a spell and the only effect you get is vision for 2 seconds. The ability itself is a pretty strong AS buff in bird form, but is kind of atrocious in human form. It relies on hitting a marked target, and only gives a 40% AS buff for 3 seconds. As a comparison, Miss Fortune has a similar ability that gets a 50% AS buff for 6 seconds, applies grievous wounds, passively adds 14 magic damage to autoattacks, and she can activate it at any time without relying on a somewhat random mark + consume gameplay.

* From a lore/fantasy point of view, it is very weird that Quinn and Valor share cooldowns, especially since pretty much every other transforming champ does not -- Shyvana being the only one that comes to mind, but that makes sense because it's still her. I can buy into the argument that it is for balancing -- and I am not in the forum camp crying QQ she is so UP because shared cooldowns -- but it still sticks out as being odd for this. Also, I don't feel the lore really explains the connection between Quinn and Valor very well. Is it a pet? Her dead brother's soul reborn as a bird? Does she have some psychic connection to it? It's just not clear in the lore.

* Overall, her kit seems really fun on paper, but is just a bit clunky in execution.


As an ADC
Most people take Quinn bot lane in the ADC slot. It.. is pretty bad. Her levels 1-2 trading is pretty good if you get the drop on them. After that, Quinn just gets pooped on by pretty much every single ADC.

Her range is short and she is easily outpoked by any champ that has a poke ability. Normally the shorter ranged champs put out a bit more DPS (Graves, Vayne, when Corki is on your face). Quinn does not. She stops autoattacking during human E which reduces your dps by a lot, even with the extra passive proc (late game missing out on 2ish autoattacks for a single passive proc that cannot crit).

After the carries build up some sizeable AD, Quinn's damage is outscaled by every other carry. All of her AD scaling ablities are off of bonus AD, but she doesn't get the .8-1.4 scaling that other bonus AD abilities get. And since her ult's AoE damage is not on-demand and being in bird form generally results in you doing 0 damage OR being killed in team fights, and you can't even E in most team fights in human form because you'll just bring yourself closer to be stunned and focused, Quinn just doesn't carry as well as any other ADC.

I feel like I'm hurting my team by trying to take Quinn as an ADC because I know if I play another ADC then I will have a better laning phase AND scale into late game better. Quite honestly, if I take Quinn bot lane, I feel like I'm playing a squishier lower dps version of Graves. Especially considering the AoE burst of the ult is not on-demand, human E puts me in danger and lowers my overall DPS, and bird form is only useful when I don't die instantly (which I will if built as an ADC), then I really feel that Quinn doesn't belong in this role.


As a top lane bruiser
I really think this is where Quinn should be. I've also heard of people taking her jungling, but I haven't really done that seriously and can't comment on it. I have had the most sucess top lane, and the most fun.

Quinn is not a typical AD bruiser, and you must use all her mobility tools and only bird form in for the kill after harassing against most top lane champs. However, she is just not quite up to the task. Most top lane champs will either outpoke, or out-tank + out-sustain Quinn.

As bruiser top lane, her lack of high scaling damage really shows (but at least you can use bird form without dying instantly). Even if I totally zone and deny my enemy in top lane and am ahead by 1k-2k gold, I will not be as useful in team fights.

However, if you get an enemy that does not have a targeted dash, hard CC, or super tank-sustain on the Nasus level, you will usually win your lane fairly easily. Riven is a champ that used to be problematic for me top lane, but I have no problems as Quinn with her. But I feel that any ranged ADC played and built similarly will do better at this anyways.


Overall
I absolutely love her playstyle, her looks, her concept. I love the feeling of using all my mobility to whittle people down with ranged autoattacks and then swooping in for a kill as a giant bird. She's fun. But I think she suffers a bit from not really knowing what she wants to be.

She's got low AD ratios and a high base damage on her Q which is pretty bruiser like,

But she is also super slow MS-wise in human form, super squishy which is pretty ADC like, but she is completely outshined dps-wise as a carry.

Add in a few bugs/oddities with her kit make her struggle against 90% of the common top lane champs (E = get CCed, somewhat high cooldowns, slow MS, and super squishy), and her questionably squishy and kiteable ult-bird-form, and inability to double tap R for the quick burst damage without being forced into bird form, and you have a champ that really only shines at levels 1-2.

She is pretty close to where she should be in my eyes, and I would like to see her be a highly mobile ranged top lane bruiser-carry. But I feel like I need an extra item slot and another 2800 gold to be as effective as other champs. Perhaps fix some of the oddities/bugs, and a slight damage or movespeed or natural tankiness buff and I think she would be golden.



TL/DR: She is super fun, but has a few bugs, and feels a touch weaker than she should.


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Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

03-21-2013

PS, I just reread it and I think it came off a bit more QQ than I intended it to be at the start. I really love Quinn, and I think she is super fun and *almost there* in terms of game power.


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deirin

Senior Member

03-21-2013

dayum man...u really expect me to read all this?...lol


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ShatteredIce

Member

03-21-2013

The biggest thing I took from this is that her ult doesn't feel rewarding to stay in, this is the biggest issue with her mechanically I believe. Numbers can always be tweaked, but her ult mechanically mostly serves as an attack speed/ms steroid with a slight burst nuke on the second use. What I think would help fix this is her passive Harrier. When using Tag Team, Harrier no longer does anything, rather than Quinn waiting around in the sky hi-fiving pantheon, I think she should shoot people periodically the way Valor marks people. This could even extend to when you use the E while Tag Teaming as a reflection of how Valor marks someone when you backflip off of them, instead Quinn could shoot them. This part I'm less sure of but I think it would work out and be a lot of fun.

Thematically I think this makes sense too as they continue to work together even though Valor is taking the forefront.


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Sir Tiddles

Senior Member

03-21-2013

I actually am a huge fan of most aspects of her ult. For going 1v1, split pushing and still arriving at an upcoming team fight, and diving the enemy carries when building bruiser are all very awesome things. My main point about the ult is that in team fights, especially when building as an ADC, using your ult isn't an option as going melee = death for nothing and you can't even double tap it and use it solely for the damage.

To be clear, I do not think her ult is by any means her biggest issue.


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4death4

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Recruiter

03-21-2013

not weak. just difficult


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PikaRioCed

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Senior Member

03-21-2013

I really enjoy playing her. I feel two changes (not both, just one or the other) would make her a lot more desirable:

A) Lower the cooldown on R
OR
B) Make E refresh its cooldown if you score a kill while playing Valor.

Note: I only adc her. She is wonderful to trade with due to the blind and puts out tons of damage levels 3-7. After that her midgame is iffy if not fed, and her lategame is... lackluster, unless you adapt your build from standard adc builds into something a little more durable- Frozen Mallet comes to mind, for example.

I find she is mainly great as a split-pusher and a high-risk high-reward assassin-type adc, as well as cleanup. If Shaco & Master Yi had a baby that is an adc it would be Quinn & Valor.


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footfoe

Senior Member

03-21-2013

I don't think she's a good bruiser.


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Invictrix

Senior Member

03-21-2013

I haven't gotten Quinn, because the whole point to her is bird form, but I keep wondering why would I want bird form like ever?


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Pøtatoes

Member

03-21-2013

My problem with Quinn is that her ult is an ultimate 1v1 duel tool, but by the time you get higher lvl, team fights is what really makes a difference and she just does poorly in team fights.