I just don't get it...

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suprachiasmatic

Senior Member

03-22-2013

Cavo..I must (in a tongue-in-cheek way) call you a sexist for assuming I am a man just because I am on here. Not a man, either, last time I checked..My problem with you Cavo is that you assume too much. You arent showing me that you are intellectually curious..you just spout off talking points I've heard time and again. The reason I know they are talking points is because there is a distinct formula that anyone with half a brain can recognize.

It looks something like this:

Step 1: Say is the system works and is fair - tell them to PLAY MORE GAMES

Step 2: Talk about MMR and hidden elo

Step 3: If they insist, link them to the LoL video and talk about clamping

Step 4: Damage their credibility. Do some OP research on them. look up their LoLking and post their stats in a way to detract from them..try to make them feel embarrassed and bad.
(Example: Cavo says: "you win 16 games and lose 24, you are atrocious")

Step 5: Attack them personally, even if you have to lie about what they've said - no one will read back posts and after Step 4, you have hopefully damaged their credibility)
(Example: Cavo says "you are asking for handouts" )

Etc Etc Etc

Anyway, a real argument has exchanges. You respond to things someone says. You dont cut and paste quote someone and then say something underneath that proves you havent read a thing the person you are quoting said. You have as much information as any of us, unless you work for riot and have more info than you let on, yet you act as though you know more about something that cant possibly be known (unless you work for Riot)..and you try to denounce anyone who doesnt agree with your world view.


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Tál

Senior Member

03-22-2013

"Once you get to gold you can literally throw every game you so wish and never move from gold so long as you're playing. Hence making it harder to get into gold is, in all honesty, a much bigger plus. The games aren't going to waste either .. If you're winning 3 and losing 1, it helps out your MMR, which if you can keep up the win ratio through gold, will make you progress through gold much quicker when you get there. Don't focus so much on the LP as you do improving play and continuing to win the majority of your games."

I think this was one of the best replies ive seen to the clamping system. You cannot expect to get to silver > gold > plat > diamond by winning 50% of your games. you need to be able to show that you are better than that and deserve the promotion because once you get promoted you will never go back down, unlike the old days where you would get 1200 elo (woo silver!) but you lose a game and you are back down to where you were.

Hope this helps


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Selcopa

Senior Member

03-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by suprachiasmatic View Post
Selcopa..enough with the straw man argument. You know very well I never said I don't belong where I am. What I said was it is impossible to ever get ahead - and I backed it up in many postings around the forums...and Player Support says its a bug..
You are saying you belong where you are. But at the same time you are saying that even if you were to spend 1,000 hours practicing the game hardcore with the very best players giving you all the best possible advice that it would be impossible for you to move up.

Either its impossible to move up, or its not, it cant be impossible for some people and possible for other people to move up. You cant have it both ways.

You agree with me that you where are where you belong correct?
However you are saying it is impossible to influence a game more than you currently are able to, in order to win games that a lesser skilled player would have lost?

Surely you must see how ridiculous that sounds.

Quote:
And, to your point about luck...that is exactly the point. You see, Selcopa, if I had won one more game in my placement matches, I would have been placed in Silver 5 and I wouldn't be able to drop to Bronze, all because I "got lucky" in my placement matches..You cant say its skill on one hand and luck on the other. Some people were carried to gold. Heck, some people elo boosted to platinum ..is that fair? If someone is gold 5 or Plat 5 or Diamond 5 - maybe they don't deserve to be where they are...but they are where they are..maybe they just got lucky. You see my point here at all?
You accept that boosters exist, so let me ask you this, how does a booster exist if its impossible to move up.

Let me ask this as well, why cant you become a booster? You accept that people get their account boosted to plat or diamond, why cant you be the one that boosts it, if its possible for one player to control and account and boost it, then who cares who the player is, why cant it be you?

The fact of the matter is, you cant boost your own account not because the system holds you down, but because you suck, when you improve, you will boost your own account. You are hung up on this bug that may or may not exist, however you completely ignore the fact that there are literally tens of thousands of players who have the skill caliber to win 90% of the games they played if they were to play on your account.

They have no more special abilities than you, no hidden powers, they have exactly the same characteristics in game as you, the only difference is, the individual makes different decisions than you. If you learn to make different decisions(ie, the right decisions) you too could get winrates of over 90% and then you wouldn't even notice this "phantom bug"

Quote:
I have been playing since november. I made level 30 shortly before Season 3. I did my placement matches like a month ago. I know who I am. I know where I am. I have no doubt I am a Bronze-level player. Thats your straw man argument..or red herring..or [insert fallacy here] to detract from the real question: Why are you such a cheerleader for a broken system? Does it make you feel good?

Think about it.
Because I teach players how to play the game, and all of them improve drastically after teaching them, because they start making the correct decisions and winning games that they couldn't of won before, I see no evidence of a broken system because I teach players who are "stuck" in elo hell and you know what they start doing? Winning.


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suprachiasmatic

Senior Member

03-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selcopa View Post
You are saying you belong where you are. But at the same time you are saying that even if you were to spend 1,000 hours practicing the game hardcore with the very best players giving you all the best possible advice that it would be impossible for you to move up.
I never said that..when did I ever even mention practicing for 1000 hours? I do, however, practice around 6 hours a day..passes the time..

Quote:
Either its impossible to move up, or its not, it cant be impossible for some people and possible for other people to move up. You cant have it both ways.
You are misunderstanding what I am saying..I am saying I move up a little, but I dont get ahead. my last 7 ranked games I won four and lost three. I ended up with less points than if i had never played, but I won more than i lost out of my last 7 games. two of those losses werent helped by the fact that one game was a 3v5 and the other was a 4v5. AFKs and internet connection issues happen quite a lot. If I was at a level where I was more advanced, it might be something I could overcome..but I am not and the teamwork required for endeavors like surviving and winning a 3 v 5 is just not there at my level. Now, I have played games where my team had an afk and won in non-ranked..but thats because people worked together or someone split pushed..



Quote:
You agree with me that you where are where you belong correct?
However you are saying it is impossible to influence a game more than you currently are able to, in order to win games that a lesser skilled player would have lost?

Surely you must see how ridiculous that sounds.
Let me tell you about the game I had two days ago. Please tell me what I could have done to change this. I was adc..it was going poorly so I quietly began pushing bot and top when my team was fighting. eventually we had two inhibs down and went in for the nexus. We got it to half health. nexus was at half health and we are all hitting it and the game is about to end. three of my team decides to go back to base because one of our inner turrets was about to fall. So there I was hitting the nexus alone..alone because my other teamate was pounding away on the third inhibitor before he, too, retreated. at that point it was so close to being over that I didnt notice I was the only one left. someone from the other team finally noticed I was up there and had teleported back to kill me. Stupid me and no map awareness, I know - but honestly something so stupid happening when it was so close to being over just didnt occur to me as possible. My bad. At some point I just said..oh its another game like that and went with the flow..so we chase chase chase..mindless chasing and no commitment to winning. The game went on another twenty or thirty minutes after that. The inhibs revived several times. We lost..no one would kill the nexus with me, they all wanted to chase the other team and die..THAT is the kind of game that happens at my level...and its very frustrating to me.

Quote:

You accept that boosters exist, so let me ask you this, how does a booster exist if its impossible to move up.
I accept that they existed prior to season 3..as far as now, I have no idea.

Quote:
You are hung up on this bug that may or may not exist, however you completely ignore the fact that there are literally tens of thousands of players who have the skill caliber to win 90% of the games they played if they were to play on your account.

They have no more special abilities than you, no hidden powers, they have exactly the same characteristics in game as you, the only difference is, the individual makes different decisions than you. If you learn to make different decisions(ie, the right decisions) you too could get winrates of over 90% and then you wouldn't even notice this "phantom bug"

player support called it a bug, I merely repeated what they said. And anyway if mmr being low is causing me to lose twice as many points as i gain, then why am i matched with people at or about my league level? Doesnt add up.


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Selcopa

Senior Member

03-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by suprachiasmatic View Post
I never said that..when did I ever even mention practicing for 1000 hours? I do, however, practice around 6 hours a day..passes the time..
Here's what you said
"You know very well I never said I don't belong where I am. What I said was it is impossible to ever get ahead "

So, its either impossible to move up, or its not.

Quote:
You are misunderstanding what I am saying..I am saying I move up a little, but I dont get ahead. my last 7 ranked games I won four and lost three. I ended up with less points than if i had never played, but I won more than i lost out of my last 7 games. two of those losses werent helped by the fact that one game was a 3v5 and the other was a 4v5. AFKs and internet connection issues happen quite a lot. If I was at a level where I was more advanced, it might be something I could overcome..but I am not and the teamwork required for endeavors like surviving and winning a 3 v 5 is just not there at my level. Now, I have played games where my team had an afk and won in non-ranked..but thats because people worked together or someone split pushed..
So now you are changing your stance, before it was systematically impossible to move upwards, you are now changing your position that it's not impossible, you just are unhappy with the rate in which you have the ability to progress.


That position, is no longer a provable fact that you can have, but rather an opinion, and a bad one, from a self admitted bad player, in reality you should be looking to take advice "Hmm this player seems to have a good understanding of how to move up, and they clearly are better than me, maybe I should listen to what they say"


Quote:
Let me tell you about the game I had two days ago. Please tell me what I could have done to change this. I was adc..it was going poorly so I quietly began pushing bot and top when my team was fighting. eventually we had two inhibs down and went in for the nexus. We got it to half health. nexus was at half health and we are all hitting it and the game is about to end. three of my team decides to go back to base because one of our inner turrets was about to fall. So there I was hitting the nexus alone..alone because my other teamate was pounding away on the third inhibitor before he, too, retreated. at that point it was so close to being over that I didnt notice I was the only one left. someone from the other team finally noticed I was up there and had teleported back to kill me. Stupid me and no map awareness, I know - but honestly something so stupid happening when it was so close to being over just didnt occur to me as possible. My bad. At some point I just said..oh its another game like that and went with the flow..so we chase chase chase..mindless chasing and no commitment to winning. The game went on another twenty or thirty minutes after that. The inhibs revived several times. We lost..no one would kill the nexus with me, they all wanted to chase the other team and die..THAT is the kind of game that happens at my level...and its very frustrating to me.
I'd be willing to be a $25 RP card that if you uploaded that replay, I would find at least 50 mistakes you made in it that YOU personally made, not your team. And also that a lot of these mistakes could have made the game closer, or even more likely, a win.

You make absolutely zero sense with your posts, you come in start out saying how you accept that you are new to the game and you don't know what you are talking about, and then in the same post, you act as if you have some inside knowledge, like I don't know how the games are played at your level.

Let me assure you, you've been around since only season 3, I have played more matches in the bracket at your level, and in EACH of the 10+ brackets in between. I was not naturally good at this game, I sucked, I still suck, improving to where I am was not an accident, it was a slow crawl, so don't try to tell me "Oh the system is broken its all luck" just because you personally suck at the game and you don't want to do what it takes to get better.

Quote:
player support called it a bug, I merely repeated what they said. And anyway if mmr being low is causing me to lose twice as many points as i gain, then why am i matched with people at or about my league level? Doesnt add up.
Their MMR is the same as yours, even if their division standing is a little higher than their MMR


Quote:
good for you..I have a husband at about your level who is kindly teaching me. My new thing Im trying to learn as a counter to all the champion chasing that is prevalent in most games is quietly taking turrets when everyone is fighting. Usually no one on the other team seems to notice until a turret falls..I ward up, try to be sneaky..but I am not great at this yet though..sometimes i am noticed..probably need a pink ward for where i plan to hide, idk..occasionally when I attempt this someone on the team comes to help and all the fighting follows them and we all die..mission not accomplished...mainly what is happening so far is i get greedy, push too long, am not watching the map despite putting out wards and get caught...but, yeah, tricks exist..just not skilled..I suck..just like you said.
Again this makes absolutely zero sense, you have somebody telling you that you can win games if you play better. But you have this idea in your head that you cant move up, even though you know that you aren't playing good. Honestly all you are doing here is being lazy about getting better, you want the immediate reward of higher division standing when you have done nothing to show you deserve it.


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