My warning - seems legit...

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PenguinKillBear

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tray View Post
No. Stop making strawman arguments because you're mad Ive highlighted the flaws with the tribunal system.
It is not a straw man argument. It is simple fact. RIot has stated that retaliation to toxic behavior with your own toxic behavior is never acceptable. This is precisely what you did.


From Lyte:

4) That player in my game was far worse than me. Why am I banned???
a) I'll keep this one simple: retaliation isn't OK. Reacting to a toxic player by being toxic just incites that player to be even worse--it also ruins the game for up to 8 other players. It is far, far worse to watch two people yelling at each other all game than it is to watch 1 player ranting into blank space. Almost everyone in the game can find someone out there that behaves worse than they do--but so what? Finding someone worse doesn't justify your behavior or justify retaliation. We expect more out of our players. What players often don't realize is... those other players in your game that you thought were worse? Nearly 100% of the time, those players were banned even before you were. If someone is being toxic, just report them and move on. If you retaliate, both of you will be banned. It's really that simple.


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Blafon

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Senior Member

03-18-2013

Well deserved warning. Change your attitude or face further punishment.


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Tray

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinKillBear View Post
It is not a straw man argument. It is simple fact. RIot has stated that retaliation to toxic behavior with your own toxic behavior is never acceptable. This is precisely what you did.


From Lyte:

4) That player in my game was far worse than me. Why am I banned???
a) I'll keep this one simple: retaliation isn't OK. Reacting to a toxic player by being toxic just incites that player to be even worse--it also ruins the game for up to 8 other players. It is far, far worse to watch two people yelling at each other all game than it is to watch 1 player ranting into blank space. Almost everyone in the game can find someone out there that behaves worse than they do--but so what? Finding someone worse doesn't justify your behavior or justify retaliation. We expect more out of our players. What players often don't realize is... those other players in your game that you thought were worse? Nearly 100% of the time, those players were banned even before you were. If someone is being toxic, just report them and move on. If you retaliate, both of you will be banned. It's really that simple.
Ok i get that you guys are mad and stupid, so let me define a strawman logical fallacy for you.

A strawman is a logical fallacy where you project an argument onto someone that they are not making and then defeat it to attempt to make a point. Since I have not said that retaliation is not punishable, you are in fact making that strawman argument. Further, I have agreed based on the technicality of the tribunal system, I deserve a punish, because after all, any cherry picked segment will force dumb people like you to remove context and spam punish.

Which ultimately is the point. That the tribunal is a systematic failure and combination of flaws that lead to inappropriate number of repots and punishes in order to weed out a very small amount of terribly abusive players.

And on top of that, to that extent, it does not accomplish it's goal.

If you would like to argue against me, please address my actual argument and not your strawman.


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PenguinKillBear

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tray View Post
Ok i get that you guys are mad and stupid, so let me define a strawman logical fallacy for you.

A strawman is a logical fallacy where you project an argument onto someone that they are not making and then defeat it to attempt to make a point. Since I have not said that retaliation is not punishable, you are in fact making that strawman argument. Further, I have agreed based on the technicality of the tribunal system, I deserve a punish, because after all, any cherry picked segment will force dumb people like you to remove context and spam punish.

Which ultimately is the point. That the tribunal is a systematic failure and combination of flaws that lead to inappropriate number of repots and punishes in order to weed out a very small amount of terribly abusive players.

And on top of that, to that extent, it does not accomplish it's goal.

If you would like to argue against me, please address my actual argument and not your strawman.
I understand quite well what a straw man is, do you know what an ad hominem argument is?

Again, you stated that the problem with what the poster said was that he posted what you said, rather than the context including what the duo queue said to you.. I stated that the context is irrelevant as you responding in a toxic manner to their toxic behavior is still a bannable offense. So please explain to me again your understanding of logical fallacies.


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Tray

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Anyway this thread only further highlights the problem with the tribunal in allowing angry 12 year olds, with little to no education to act as judges.

The fact that they get so upset by simply having a light shined on their ignorance that they have to downvote logical counterarguments to them only exemplifies it.

Please proceed governor.


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AeroWaffle

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tray View Post
Ok i get that you guys are mad and stupid, so let me define a strawman logical fallacy for you.

A strawman is a logical fallacy where you project an argument onto someone that they are not making and then defeat it to attempt to make a point. Since I have not said that retaliation is not punishable, you are in fact making that strawman argument. Further, I have agreed based on the technicality of the tribunal system, I deserve a punish, because after all, any cherry picked segment will force dumb people like you to remove context and spam punish.

Which ultimately is the point. That the tribunal is a systematic failure and combination of flaws that lead to inappropriate number of repots and punishes in order to weed out a very small amount of terribly abusive players.

And on top of that, to that extent, it does not accomplish it's goal.

If you would like to argue against me, please address my actual argument and not your strawman.
We presented our arguments of why your punishment was valid, you're free to believe it or not. But nothing that you or me say here will affect how the tribunal treats you, in this case or the next.

The tribunal is voted on by the community, if a majority of the forum believes you deserve a punishment, then chances are a majority of the tribunal users voted punish on your case. You're free to dispute the verdict via a support ticket, but I don't think you'll get anywhere since I think you deserved your tribunal verdict.


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Flickerei

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tray View Post
Ok i get that you guys are mad and stupid, so let me define a strawman logical fallacy for you.

A strawman is a logical fallacy where you project an argument onto someone that they are not making and then defeat it to attempt to make a point. Since I have not said that retaliation is not punishable, you are in fact making that strawman argument. Further, I have agreed based on the technicality of the tribunal system, I deserve a punish, because after all, any cherry picked segment will force dumb people like you to remove context and spam punish.

Which ultimately is the point. That the tribunal is a systematic failure and combination of flaws that lead to inappropriate number of repots and punishes in order to weed out a very small amount of terribly abusive players.

And on top of that, to that extent, it does not accomplish it's goal.

If you would like to argue against me, please address my actual argument and not your strawman.
Really? Calling people on here stupid and dumb simply because they're saying why you got punished?

And did you seriously state the definition of a strawman and then finish your thoughts with a strawman of your own? If it was truly a failure and highly flawed then prove it. Find data, rioters admitting to this, anything with facts backing it up to prove that its the mess that you claim it is. Simply saying "it's a failure because I think it is" means nothing.

EDIT: With the post you made afterwards you don't even need to do anything. I think we can all see what you're really after.


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Tray

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinKillBear View Post
I understand quite well what a straw man is, do you know what an ad hominem argument is?

Again, you stated that the problem with what the poster said was that he posted what you said, rather than the context including what the duo queue said to you.. I stated that the context is irrelevant as you responding in a toxic manner to their toxic behavior is still a bannable offense. So please explain to me again your understanding of logical fallacies.
You didnt understand strawman a second ago when you incorrectly said your argument was not one.

And yes I used ad hominem, because it is true, you are in fact ignorant. I figure one logical fallacy deserved another there. Maybe you can report me to your mom, or better yet, address my actual point next time instead of trying to make yourself feel superior to others without logical basis.


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Blafon

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Actually this case highlights how the tribunal is working well. If someone like you with your attitude is getting a warning then we know the tribunal is making good decisions. The tribunal is expected to ruffle a few feathers. If we saw no angry threads in this forum I would be worried the tribunal isn't strict enough.


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powerbats

Senior Member

03-18-2013

Ok here you go.

Game 1 Your doing fine some back and forth nothing bad until this.

Kassadin [00:22:01] no you noobs stfu ( Your not that bad yet but definitely not needed)

Kassadin [00:22:58] indeed you are noob (Again you continue down this path, there's no need for it you could've let it go but had to respond)

Kassadin [00:23:35] our duo is so bad
Kassadin [00:23:40] just jerk eachother off and stfu ( ok here you just plain cross the line and now your being a jerk and earning a punish)

Kassadin [00:23:42] you're both terrible ( Continuing with the insults and negativity)

Kassadin [00:27:21] thought you ignored me
Kassadin [00:27:31] so you're just totallf ull of shi ( Why respond with more insults and negativity, your just feeding the continuing of the negativity and ruining the game for the rest of your team)

Kassadin [00:28:56] calling for report
Kassadin [00:28:59] is a bannable offense
Kassadin [00:29:02] esp from two trolls

That last part is kinda ironic considering your next game you do the exact same thing.

Game 2 You start off early with the toxic behavior.

Alistar [00:04:21] lux you're reported if you feed
Alistar [00:04:23] pretty simple
Alistar [00:04:29] since you called mid and got counter picked because of it

Wow pot meet kettle.

Alistar [00:12:42] bad vlad
Alistar [00:12:43] is bad (apparently insulting your mates boosts your ego and seems to continue a pattern from game 1)

Alistar [00:14:34] vlad just bad (again with the insults, does telling him he's bad if he is do anything other than boost your ego and contribute to more negativity that's already there?)

Alistar [00:28:59] i thought asians were supposed to be good at this game ( Wow just wow, racism much? Your Lux was just as bad but you really crossed the line here and would get a punish for this).

Alistar [00:31:08] no you dont know how to play
Alistar [00:31:11] no reason to speak to you further
Alistar [00:31:14] your skill compared to mine

(There's always someone who's going to be better than you so stop trying to stroke your epeen at others expense it just shows how small your is.)

Alistar [00:32:38] yet both of you are terrible
Alistar [00:32:45] and have no map awareness
Alistar [00:33:42] keep speaking our your ass

(You continue the flame war)

Alistar [00:34:14] anyway ignored ( you've said this several times yet keep on flaming)

Game 3 You do really well, some back and forth until you do this.

Skarner [00:36:57] you guys are so stupid (Really what does this accomplish other than antagonize your team mates and usually start a flame war, you had good suggestions earlier)

Skarner [00:39:12] you should be opening with it
Skarner [00:39:14] in team fights
Skarner [00:39:24] like the moment you see be grab one
Skarner [00:39:26] you should be using it
Skarner [00:39:28] but im sure you're not
Skarner [00:39:32] and you're waiting to kill steal with it
Skarner [00:39:34] because you're bad

(This is a team game,but again your starting into the negativity and seeming to want a flame war)

Skarner [00:40:14] moron (more insults)

Skarner [00:41:08] this is what i get for letting you all ks me (Again team game, this isn't all about you and stroking your epeen over k/d ratio, if you win isn't that more important, a fed ad carry is important as well.)

Skarner [00:41:13] when you're all so terrible ( You just can't seem to avoid insults)

Game 4 Incomplete chat log so can't judge this case, but if there was a chat log based upon other games you were probably just as bad but this game would merit a pardon.

Game 5 Nothing here, it's easy to get snowballed in mid so you'd get a pardon on this game.

End result punish for games 1-3 and notice the overwhelming majority punish, this is only a warning and so take it to heart and avoid what's been pointed out to you. It takes on average being reported in 15-20% of your games to even get into tribunal the 1st time.

As far as a perma ban goes that's up to Riot to decide and they can see every game you've been reported in as well as the ones you weren't, they have your entire game history to review so if you continue like you've been in these games you'll likely be back in tribunal and end up being perma banned.

Lastly these from Lyte since they cover some of what you posted on as well as what you haven't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post

1) What's the point of having a language filter if I can get banned for 'adult' language?
a) We aren't out to punish players who use adult language; in fact, very few players are ever banned for saying stuff like "f***, I missed that skill shot" or "damn, f***ing close game!" However, the language filter is not an excuse to verbally abuse someone in the game. When you verbally abuse or harass someone by calling them "f***ing ******" or "n*gger noob", that's when you've crossed the line and will be punished by the Tribunal. I've said this before and I'll say it again, we aren't trying to clean online games of adult language; we're trying to reform or get rid of jerks who like to verbally abuse and harass other players.

2) I only have 1 bad game in my Tribunal Reform Card, why am I banned???
a) The Tribunal verdict is not based on a 'majority' rule; there is also no requirement that all games have to be toxic for it to warrant a suspension. Depending on the case, sometimes 1 game is all that is needed to show that the player deserves a suspension. To Tribunal reviewers, decisions like these are up to you. When you view a Tribunal case, the questions you should ask yourselves are, "Is this player's behavior appropriate in League of Legends?" and "Would I want to play with this player?"


4) That player in my game was far worse than me. Why am I banned???
a) I'll keep this one simple: retaliation isn't OK. Reacting to a toxic player by being toxic just incites that player to be even worse--it also ruins the game for up to 8 other players. It is far, far worse to watch two people yelling at each other all game than it is to watch 1 player ranting into blank space. Almost everyone in the game can find someone out there that behaves worse than they do--but so what? Finding someone worse doesn't justify your behavior or justify retaliation. We expect more out of our players. What players often don't realize is... those other players in your game that you thought were worse? Nearly 100% of the time, those players were banned even before you were. If someone is being toxic, just report them and move on. If you retaliate, both of you will be banned. It's really that simple.

5) Low skill players should be banned from the game! The Tribunal should only ban Leavers/AFK and intentional feeders, those are the only types of players that really ruin games!
a) No. Just no. Jerks ruin games. League of Legends is for everyone whether they are 500 Elo or 2500 Elo. It's not a game for jerks.