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Increase Gold Reward for Super Minions.

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Bitter ObIivion

Senior Member

03-17-2013

EDIT 4 which is the top because it's most important! - An extra 40 gold per wave is NOT game-breaking. It does not allow for comebacks from every situation. It is not a 'free win' for the team with an inhib down. The team with an inhib down is still at a severe disadvantage. All this does is punish teams for intentionally dragging out games, and reward teams who are able to defend their base for a long period of time. With the additional 40 gold per wave, over a period of 6 minutes, you would only earn a bonus amount equal to a Doran's Blade/Ring/Shield.

Quote:
Bitter ObIivion:
Super minions (at all points in the game) provide <50% gold as siege minions, yet are multiple times more difficult/time consuming to kill. The highest I've ever seen a super minion value (this is at ~60 mins) is 31 gold. A normal melee minion at that point is worth 26.

Lets look at the disadvantages of having an inhibitor down:

- A wave constantly pushing you into your base
- Loss of map control
- Loss of objective control
- 5v4 fights forced onto you
- All other lanes pushing into you
- Harder to push back
- Leave base for 2 minutes and the super minion wave has stacked up and is attacking your Nexus turrets
- Multiple inhibitors exponentially increase the difficulty of a come back
- You spend enough time killing a super minion that you could clear two other minion waves
- A lane that just needs a little shove by the enemies to be at your Nexus

Now the advantages:

- A little bit more farm for one person.

Even increasing the gold would not be a major changing point, since it's only an extra 40 gold (on top of what they're already getting) for one person for 5 minutes. 400 gold is hardly game changing, it could buy a Dagger, Null Magic Mantle, Doran's Ring, and that's about it. Remember, that's if ONE person kills ALL of the super minions in the 5 minute span.


At 35 minutes in, a fighter minion has ~30 AD and ~800HP, a siege minion has ~90 AD and ~1100 HP, and a super minion has ~300 AD and ~3800 HP. Fighter minions are worth ~25 gold, siege minions are worth ~60 gold, and super minions are worth ~30 gold.

To me, that doesn't exactly make sense.

Basically, increase the gold reward of super minions to at least that of siege minions, if not at least 75 gold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Vayne

That gives the losing team a slight means of getting back into the game. This isn't League of Snowballing, even the losing team should have a chance to get back into game and 40g+ per wave does add up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Varshil

I hear a lot of people complaining about this idea because it gives the losing team more farm, yet from watching professional streams (like LCS and MLG), the winning team is still getting more farm due to having superior control of both jungles and dragon/baron, plus the fact that the losing team often can't just sit and farm without potentially sacrificing towers in other lanes. The only time taking an inhibitor would punish the winning team is if they spend the next several minutes dicking around instead of trying to seal the deal.

I think it's a good change, particularly from an e-sports perspective, precisely because it means losing an inhibitor is no longer as disadvantageous to the losing team. As a spectator, nothing is more boring than watching one team stomp the other harder and harder with each progressive teamfight as their snowball gets larger. So in the interests of continuing to grow LoL as a legitimate sport, upping the gold on super minions is a step in the right direction.

Besides, I'm sure a lot of people are complaining because most resist change just because it's change. If super minion gold was already 75 and Riot was planning to change it to 30, just as many people would be complaining simply because they're making something different from how it used to be.


EDIT: Not only does this provide motivation for the team that is losing, giving them the 'perceived' ability to stage a comeback, but it also provides an incentive for the winning team to finish the game, because they are wary of a comeback. Games can be drawn out by teams that are in firm control, and it is incredibly bad sportsmanship since it is basically 'rubbing it in' to the other team.

EDIT 2: A lot of people have been saying "but with an inhib down people get free farm in that lane since the enemy doesn't focus it anymore". In answer to that:
1) Only one super minion comes each wave (unless multiple inhibs are down), and only one person can kill it, so all in all it isn't that much of a gold increase.
2) If a team cannot capitalise on having a 5v4 scenario in a different lane, they don't really deserve the win.
3) All it takes is one of the enemy to push with that super minion wave for 20 seconds before it becomes a real threat to the base, at which point it draws the team away from other objectives, and
4) What's an extra 40 gold/wave to one person in comparison to 150 global gold/turret, 180 global gold/dragon and 300 global gold/baron, which are now far less risky?


EDIT 3: Some simple maths (because maths is what Riot wants to see!):
-Minions spawn every 30 seconds
-Increase the gold value of super minions to 75 gold and that's an increase of ~40 gold/wave
-Baron + Dragon = 480 gold per person
-It will take 12 waves of super minions for ONE person to get that 480
-12 x 30 = 360 = 6 minutes.
-In 6 minutes, the enemy team can take Dragon, Baron, clear both jungles, possibly take 1 or 2 turrets, and engage 5v4's, with Dragon almost being back up.


Feel free to bump if you agree, or explain why you disagree, and hopefully a Red will notice this and give some input.


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Kim Jong Peel

Recruiter

03-17-2013

that punishes the enemy team that destroys the inhib.


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Muddy Vayne

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Viktor D:
that punishes the enemy team that destroys the inhib.


That gives the losing team a slight means of getting back into the game. This isn't League of Snowballing, even the losing team should have a chance to get back into game and 40g+ per wave does add up.


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JoeDerp

Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Viktor D:
that punishes the enemy team that destroys the inhib.

It doesn't punish the enemy team that destroys the inhibitors.
It rewards the team whose inhibitors are destroyed for their ability to defend once those inhibitors are down.


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Bitter ObIivion

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
Viktor D:
that punishes the enemy team that destroys the inhib.


The team that destroys an inhib doesn't exactly have to worry about an extra 40 gold per wave going to an enemy, they can just relax knowing that they can focus on only two lanes now instead of three, and objectives are easier to take unchallenged.


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Bitter ObIivion

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Frequently stated criticisms:

Quote:
Kim Jong Peel:
that punishes the enemy team that destroys the inhib.


That gives the losing team a slight means of getting back into the game. This isn't League of Snowballing, even the losing team should have a chance to get back into game and 40g+ per wave does add up.

Quote:
elBOOBOO:
The team that lose their inhibitor should be on a disadvantage

you forgot to mention that the enemy that destroys it now lose a lot of farm because the super minions takes it


It allows them to get other objectives more easily. Losing 3 inhibs is basically a death sentence to a team if they have no enemy inhibs down. Even if they ace them constantly they are forced to defend against up to 6 super minions per wave.

Quote:
FreeGothitelle:
The team with an inhibitor down gets some safe farm.
Giving that farm extra gold is silly, teams with late game carries would want to lose an inhibitor to get someone like jax or kog fed.


And while the team without the inhib is busy "safely farming" the other team is pushing down their other two lanes with half the contention and taking dragon and baron every time they spawn.


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ƒan

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Even if superminions gave 200 gold, it would not be game breaking. In fact, it would serve as an equalizer so the champion that is behind can last hit the super minion (teamwork ftw)


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PHAR0CYDE

Senior Member

03-17-2013

bump i really think riot should do this because it could really give the team who lost their inhibitor more farm so they can have a better chance at winning


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Bitter ObIivion

Senior Member

03-17-2013

Quote:
ƒan:
Even if superminions gave 200 gold, it would not be game breaking. In fact, it would serve as an equalizer so the champion that is behind can last hit the super minion (teamwork ftw)


200 gold is a bit overboard, but 75-100 gold reflects the difficulty and time required to kill the super minions.


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TheFunderstorm

Senior Member

03-17-2013

If they did this then it would be a weird meta where you WANT to lose inhib so you can farm a bunch?